First Oil Change, need opinions

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Sonarman
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First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

Sorry the pics are out of order. I did first oil change on my Pinz after picking up a couple of oil filters from Scott at Expedition Imports and you can see what came out on plug. The reason for change was oil level was high. Drained out 8 quarts of oil. A few weeks ago I drained a quart and half and sent it in for some ianalysis. Oil analysis indicates fuel in oil but was not expecting to find metal particles in the oil. Engine appears to run fine, a bit rich,
Any ideas? I do not see anything unusual with the carbs leaking. Fuel pump?


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rmel
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by rmel »

Recent posting one of the forum members had. He noticed a fair amount of gas in the oil which was due to a
leaky diaphragm on the fuel pump, Might want to dig into that one.

I believe the Calcium and Boron levels are indicative of a detergent based oil. The Iron levels are pretty darn
low -- which would imply your rig didn't sit for months at a time resulting in corrosion or oil was changed recently
before your change?

The part to be a bit concerned about are the metal bits which is quit possibly from lifter pitting. This may be
a sign of using -- for a lack of better terms -- "street" oil for many years. What should be used is one of three
Oils; Diesel engine oil class "CJ", ashless Aircraft oil, or Oil designed for classic cars (with solid lifters). Today's
car oil lacks sufficient anti-wear additives e.g. ZDDP (it is a Poisson for catalytic converters thus the significant
reduction in ZDDPl). Diesel engines are still considered high wear and oil has maintained the proper level of
ZDDP -- at least for now, read the label and safe with CJ. Aircraft engine oil -- which I use, requires proper
anti-wear as specified by the engine companies e.g. Lycoming etc.you don't want engine failure at 10,000' :wink:

Here's a PIX of a good and bad (pitted lifter) -- the metal bits go to the bottom of the sump. See if your debris
looks like small "chip-outs". BTW the cam can wear flat but typically doesn't. The point force on the surface of
the lifters is incredibly high. Lifters today are rollers.
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Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712MK

Driver: Ron // KO0Q
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bbolander
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by bbolander »

I had the oil level too high and fuel smell in the oil too. I've had a lot of responses here on the fuel in motor oil problem, I haven't had any particles on the magnetic plug.

The most likely cause seems to be a leaking fuel pump. I recently changed my fuel pump and did find gas on the underside of the old one and in the spacer below the pump. That would be an easy thing for you to check, just unbolt the fuel pump, lift it up, and see if there's fuel underneath. Don't even have to remove the fuel lines.

The other mentioned cause is carbs leaking fuel into the cylinder walls and into the oil.

I'm hoping that changing the fuel pump and rebuilding the carbs will stop mine. It's too early to tell since my oil is freshly changed.
1971 Pinzgauer 710M, all stock including 245-16 Maloya tires, taken off and stored for show
BFG MT KM2 265/75R16's on Black SAV replacement rims on now
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Jimm391730
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Jimm391730 »

When I first changed the oil in my trucks, there was quite a bit stuck to the magnet. Now I get just a little bit, every time I change the oil. Seems common as both my trucks have a small bit - one with a completely stock engine, the other with a 2.7l conversion, cam and compression change. Wipe off the magnet and see how much is on it for your next oil change.
Jim M.
712W and 710M
Sonarman
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

Thank you all for the info, yes the particles do look like they are probably off lifter. I will check fuel pump today.
Sonarman
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

I pulled fuel pump.
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Took fuel pump apart, diaphragms look pretty good no crack or holes visible. Should have Napa auto part replacement installed this afternoon.
Picture of area under pump was not really loaded with fuel as I was expecting. Now I am not so sure of pump causing fuel in oil. Should area under pump be completely dry?
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bbolander
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by bbolander »

I'd say if you touch it and smell it and if it's fuel you should replace the pump. I believe there are a couple of small holes in the plastic base, so fuel might drain into the oil through those.
1971 Pinzgauer 710M, all stock including 245-16 Maloya tires, taken off and stored for show
BFG MT KM2 265/75R16's on Black SAV replacement rims on now
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rmel
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by rmel »

BTW it's not like you have a lot of fuel in your Oil, it's about 2X above limit ASSUMING
your oil was changed at a reasonable tempo. If it was, acceptable level is <2% by volume.
Your almost 4%, that could be expected if the last oil change was 6K to 8K miles. You
may also want to do a compression test just for yuks. Blowby can be a source of fuel
by-produces in your oil. You might just be fine too and a 2n'd test at 3,000 miles will tell
you that. Iron and Chromium are low so cylinders and rings ain't washing away :wink:

IMHO the worst thing I see here are the chip-outs.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712MK

Driver: Ron // KO0Q
Sonarman
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

I got Napa Auto parts fuel pump installed they did not have the 1070 part number I wanted so took what they had. It was made in Brazil. Hooked fuel lines back up fired right up. The oil I change out was very clean and I am sure did not have 1000 miles on it. Oil level is perfect I will take it for ride tomorrow and see how oil level does. Previous owner was knowledgeable mechanic and took good care of this Pinz. I did notice balance is off a bit on the carbs 10 on front and 16 on rear.
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Jimm391730
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Jimm391730 »

The amount of small percentage fuel in the oil may also be due to short trips where the oil doesn't have time to get good and hot; I would expect the fuel to vaporize easily, once hot, and dissipate out the crankcase breather (back into the carbs through the air intake). Can you say if you've had many long(er) trips, or just short runs or idling in the driveway?
Jim M.
712W and 710M
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rmel
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by rmel »

Hmmmm, well this is a wee bit of a different situation then, given the oil was relatively
fresh before you changed it. A 4% concentration of fuel in the oil is then significant, that's in the
ballpark of 1/2 a pint. Was there any indication of a problem on the diaphragm of the old fuel
pump? For this amount to have come from blowby or other sources would be an indication of a
pretty bad problem. Are your carbs running fine, no sign of flooding as such? Maybe the prior
had a bad habit of pumping on the gas peddle excessively before cranking and did frequent
starts? Hopefully your next oil check at say 3000 miles turns up clean.

If you are on speaking terms with the prior, see if you can find out what his habits were and if
there were any signs of issues developing; oil level creep up, what oil type did he use EXACTLY
not just the weight/viscosity, did he use any aftermarket additives e.g. MMO, did he notice metal
bits on the drain plug magnet at every oil change.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712MK

Driver: Ron // KO0Q
Sonarman
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Location: Sonoma, Ca

Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

I always make sure engine gets fully warmed up and rarely just move it in driveway even then, I take it for 5 miles so no moisture in exhaust etc.
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bbolander
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by bbolander »

bbolander wrote:I'd say if you touch it and smell it and if it's fuel you should replace the pump. I believe there are a couple of small holes in the plastic base, so fuel might drain into the oil through those.
I'm having second thoughts on whether my fuel pump was the reason for my fuel in the oil. We took our suspect pump apart and the diaphragm was fine. I also noticed the leak hole in the bottom of the pump bowl which is to indicate that if the diaphragm was leaking we should have seen fuel drip out of that hole, and we have never seen that happen. If the two small holes in the plastic spacer allow engine oil to enter the bottom of the pump, the fuel smell I got from the underside of the pump and top side of the plastic spacer might have been fuel in the engine oil.

Is there any other way a fuel pump could be leaking fuel into the oil if the diaphragm is good?
1971 Pinzgauer 710M, all stock including 245-16 Maloya tires, taken off and stored for show
BFG MT KM2 265/75R16's on Black SAV replacement rims on now
Sonarman
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Location: Sonoma, Ca

Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

Fuel pump is replaced new oil put in I will take it for drive today and check oil level to see if it has risen.
Sonarman
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Re: First Oil Change, need opinions

Post by Sonarman »

So far after about 75 miles oil level is Normal. Now let's see if it says that way.
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