I, too, am installing the same system as Jim L. The reason I decided to go with the sequential computer is partly the "WoW - Sequential!" factor, but MOSTLY because the 8860 has altitude compensation built in. I have a 4500 foot vertical commute, I'm always going way up or way down and I hate the way the carbs don't deal with that!
The Stinger system (lower cost, batch fire computer from EMS also) does not have that capability. But I have heard that the next generation Stinger should add that capability as well. I just didn't want to wait.
If everything goes well (and I have enough time) I should get everything installed this weekend, then schedule dyno time for proper mapping... Can't wait!
Jim M.
710M and 712W (with Jim's 2.7l conversion and soon to have 8860 fuel injection )
I have tested 7 different EMS arrangements against each other on my primary engines (4 cylinder aircooled Porsche) and have found that they are basically all the same. The bells and whistles just add complexity to tune.
The difference between sequential and batch fire are almost nil on an engine like the Pinz that never sees 5,252 RPM+. I have found batch fire to give the best fuel economy- no matter the system.
So Jake any eta on your kit/system for install in customers Pinz's Did you ever get any high altitude data? Your welcome to come to Denver, if you don't bring your Pinz, I can find a few volunteers to test on
Jimm391730 wrote:I, too, am installing the same system as Jim L. The reason I decided to go with the sequential computer is partly the "WoW - Sequential!" factor, but MOSTLY because the 8860 has altitude compensation built in. I have a 4500 foot vertical commute, I'm always going way up or way down and I hate the way the carbs don't deal with that!
Back to the MegaSquirt again. My understanding is that MegaSquirt will take an initial reading through the manifold pressure sensor (MAP) to initially compensate for altitude. It is also possible to add a second sensor to get a constant atmospheric pressure reading.
But I have also read that the atmospheric readings are not really helpful when you are running closed-loop (in other words, with an O2 sensor) since the computer is able to make on-the-fly adjustments based on the O2 reading, and the altitude factor is handled automagically in the process. If you are running open-loop, then the atmospheric measurement is useful. Sooooooo...I have a wide-band O2 sensor I'm installing as part of the upgrade.
It sounds like these engine management computer companies have pretty boastful marketing schemes!
I gotta finish this MegaSquirt install to get the truck usable again, hopefully sooner than later.
I am curious as to why you didn't go with independant runners/throttle bodies. On my first EFI on the Pinz many years ago, I went with a plenum/single throttle body but quickly changed since I found the low end torque and controlability much better with independant runners/throttle bodies. It feels like driving a diesel. By the way, I have had no trouble getting 18MPG with the Megasquirt but most of the time I have been using a homebrew controller.
I have done test work with individual runners and plenum based arrangements so far...
Information will be available when I have hard evidence of which arrangement is best and easiest to tune.
Unfortunately there are some trolls out there that have already been trying to see behind my curtain at what I have been working on, so at this point all info is proprietary.
Hey Jake, Thats kinda funny because the Trolls are usuall saying "Do not look at the man behind the curtain, Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
That's why Dennis got rid of his curtain. He now does his diesel conversions and other experiments in his garage at home. OOOps Dennis back away with that Jacobs ladder I'm alive already. And as Gene Wilder said Whose brain does he have? The reply was It said Abbey something on the jar. I think it was Abbey Normal or somebody like that.
I have had it with the carbs, and have been hoping someone would make a tune key EFI system. I could really use it this summer. Let me know when, where, and how much? Jamey
Jamie
Just a comment.
Carburetors have been around for a considerable period and work very well when maintained. Their inherent simplicity is suited to the Pinzgauer and DIY repairs.
FIE can and (will for some) give far more driveability problems than any carburetor fiendishly can dish out for a given situation. We deal with integrated fuel systems on a daily basis fitted on modern well designed vehicles.
Generally speaking you can usually fudge a tune on a carburetor with little knowledge, however effective FIE fault diagnosis/repair dictates a portable gas analyser and a some form of scanner to "peer' into the controls of these masterpieces.
Both items are professional tools and the costs are commensurate with their title. For some I am afraid (looking into my crystal ball) there can and will be posts stating I am sick of this FI system I fitted.
Just bedtime thinking.
Dennis
Dennis, I can see where some of the "just wanna bolt it on and go" crowd may be in for a shock. There is some work involved with tuning, and it is hard to tune an EFI setup if you know nothing about how the system works.
The MegaSquirt uses a laptop for tuning, and the controller is open-source with schematics provided. Again, not good for those looking for a purely bolt-on solution, but for those willing to do some learning it is a great way to go. No pro tools required.
I do agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense to fix what isn't broken. I'd stick with the carbs if they still worked (my Pinz has worn butterfly shafts, so off-idle running is terrible).
I was thinking of another "cowboy EFI" scheme the other day. Leave the carburetors on, disconnect the fuel supply, and plug up whatever needs to be plugged up in the carburetors. Take the existing manifolds and weld on some bungs somewhere. Patch together a fuel rail, figure out some way to rig up a throttle position sensor and I would think you could easily end up with a simple EFI conversion that would run no worse that the existing carbureted setup. With the addition of an O2 sensor, I'd think economy could actually be improved.
No major manifold fabrication, and it would be theoretically possible to switch back and forth if there were a reason to do so.
I am assuming, of course, that it is possible to weld bungs on the existing intake runners. I'm not planning to try this, but it sure would be a comparatively easy conversion.
Hey Evan old friend
Once a laptop has motor vehicle info on it for peering into the electronic "boxes" its a scanner of some sort.
We use laptops for scan activities and programs are out there for all sorts of systems. I think that fact is often overlooked by the non mechanic crowd.
I can see all sorts of "funnies" with these systems, some we have already experienced with the RedBull Pinzies of So Cal fame.
Like most things its ok when its new, but electronics and vehicles are a hostile combination, especially where heat,vibration, and moisture are added to the mix.I can see the splendid virtues of the system(s) alright; after all we work on this stuff daily, Landrovers, Benzs, and the light to medium duty new generation diesels to mention a few. I think you and everyone out there will agree that there is alot of technical knowhow gone into the formulation of these FIE systems found on the vehicles mentioned. Most of it Bosch and Delphi respected names in the industry.
Having mentioned that they nonetheless have their fair share of service problems.
For starters I daresay that the laptop program for Megasquirt does not have a glitch capture for waveform inactivity taking place in a millisecond. Easily overlooked by a Pro, the amatuer would not even see if the glitch had even took place from a vital sensor. Result perhaps a miss fire that won't go away, diagnosed as an ignition problem you will tear your hair out trying to find it without a Fluke, OTC Genysis, or a Snap On Modis et al.
How many of you guys out there know of "current ramping" and the desired form of the injector(s) ramp. Without it you won't always know if the injector is working correctly and not pulling the correct current or too much. Result loss of power, miss-firing, excessive emissions etc.
Let get out of the laptop for a minute and lets look at a typical complaint. I have no power, the truck is gutless. Where do we go first?
Well fuel pressure is a good start point (Special tools required). So you diagnose bad pump 'cos you find it (pressure) low. How many of you guys know how to test a pump? properly I mean? After installing a new pump the blighter only lasts a month and the problem is back. You won't get much sympathy from Napa etc if you didn't check current draw on the pump or record the current ramp upon installation. Oh by the way did you drain and clean out the tank? Airborne silica is abundant in the air especially in the West. Evertime you fill up, you introduce some of it into the tank that eventually grinds the pump away despite a micron sock filter fitted to the suction side.!
I know of someone that fitted 8 expensive pumps to a Chevy PU before he got that message! Hard on the pocket too at $200 each.
Now lets look at another problem, too rich, fuel dillution etc. How would you guys tackle that? Ok get out the lap top plug in and look at what's being "said". Oh too much fuel the O2 sensor says so. Reprogram to change the curve you say. Then there's no power in a certain regime. Oh ma gohd whaht have I dun now would be the exclamation.
How's about an exhaust gas analyzation. You'll need a tester for that, I find our unit(s) indispensable for fault diagnosis. In fact its one of the first things we do; Shove a probe up its rear end! What about a dribbling injector how would you guys find that problem and solve it?
Honestly I am not trying to pee on the parade Evan but there will be lots of guys totally confused by all this "technology" if you want to call it that.
The end result will be more guys caving in and sending their trucks to a Pro for service and of course I am all for that. As Wallace said to Grommet "More for Uz" except we won't be refering to Wenslydale cheese we will be refering to green paper! Billete Verde estupendo!
Best of luck with the system
Very best regards
Dennis
How many of you think that if there were still gasser Pinzs' they would still have carbs?. We all look fondly back at the "golden" days of autos...but how many of you would give up your modern EFI for the "good ol' fashioned points and carb? I have found reliability wins and EFI with a little "attention" would be a great plus for our trucks. Just a thought..the suggestion of injectors below the carb seems sound to me..run off EFI and if a problem occurs, perhaps removing a liner of sort that keeps above plate jets-air bleeds clean would be the ticket. The only thing I see is that after any EFI repairs are done and returning to that mode,carbs must be drained of left-over fuel so they won't be gummed up for their any future use. Airplanes and many military vehicels run dedundent systems,this would seem to be an added plus for our antiques. NOW, if there was a way to back up the beer supply.....Mark
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for the "good ol' fashioned points and carb? I have found reliability wins and EFI with a little "attention" would be a great plus for our trucks. Just a thought..the suggestion of injectors below the carb seems sound to me..run off EFI and if a problem occurs, perhaps removing a liner of sort that keeps above plate jets-air bleeds clean would be the ticket. The only thing I see is that after any EFI repairs are done and returning to that mode,carbs must be drained of left-over fuel so they won't be gummed up for their any future use. Airplanes and many military vehicels run dedundent systems,this would seem to be an added plus for our antiques. NOW, if there was a way to back up the beer supply.....Mark