EFI tech stuff

[pinztrek]

Alan, Hi that is all we have to go on as you guy's never post.

As I said before, there are several reasons for this. One big reason is that it's better to exceed expectations than to disappoint. Another is that neither Herbert nor myself or "forum" types. I prefer email based lists, and if I do post it's most likely on the pinzgauer mailing list.

What follows is detailed EFI tech talk.... this is not a sales pitch. We are not selling to individuals. But if you want some specifics, here they are.

From the rumor mill north of you I hear Herbert was having problem's with his controller? False?

And that's why you should not give any credence to rumors.

1) We have not seen any controller related issues. Period.

2) When designing & implementing a new system that totally replaces both fuel and ignition, you can run into snags. Especially when interfacing to an OEM ignition system. Things like the "sense" of the trigger coil, etc. But you get past those with troubleshooting. Herbert ran into an issue like that on the first start of the first pinz. I came up, and we had it running & idling reliably after a couple hours of troubleshooting. That is the only "problem" we have seen, it was 18 months ago, and it had nothing to do with controllers. So much for the rumor mill!

3) Anyone planning on doing their own EFI/Ignition will run into that type of issue if you are fabbing your own harness, etc. This is one of the reasons we decided that a plug & play wiring harness is not optional. Just too many subtle things, not just to get it running, but to have a reliable system in conditions that we put our pinz's in. Example: You can burn out ignition modules if mis-wired. You can get hard starts, but running if you have your injectors cross wired. Low fuel pressure due to cobbled together plumbing can create intermitant problems.

While you chase a basic wiring issue you'll see fouled plugs, flooded engines, low battery voltage, etc from failed start attempts that can take a simple problem and mask it to look like something else. Controllers are rarely the issue, it's the basics that get you! Example: Incorrect Trigger coil polarity can allow a vehicle to start & run, but timing will be off or intermittent. Spikes on sensor wiring due to ignition/sensor wire routing can cause mysterious behavior only under certain conditions.

By providing all components, with tested wiring harness complete with OEM connectors installed, we eliminate those variables. So you bypass the learning curve.

Never forget that the pinz is a high vibration, wet, hot environment compared to many vehicles. They see conditions your average "import tuner" Camry EFI system never sees. Which leads to.....

4) Controllers are the least critical part of the system to get a vehicle running, even running well. Yeah, controller features allow you to do some things that are useful. Some are easier to setup/tune than others, etc. But they are not a limiting factor if they have comparable basic features.

What does make a difference in long term reliability/usability is packaging. This means size, form factor, cabling, water tightness, etc.

Our 1st gen controller works great. Vehicle runs great. Absolutely reliable day to day. But we felt the packaging/form factor could be improved on, especially for bone stock pinz's with 24v systems. And for certain customers, expectations are higher.

Our 2nd gen controller and wiring harness really gave us what we wanted in terms of form factor/simplicity and is about as close to OEM level engineering as you can get in an aftermarket controller. Like the rest of the pinz, you can now wash the inside of the cab with a hose and not worry about the controller. Everything from how the wires are routed, bundled, and wrapped has been refined for long term reliability.

This also means no external relays, fuse boxes, etc to fail. And to find a place to mount, etc.

Along the way we rolled in:
- Close loop idle & fast start control. This was a huge win, and creates one of the largest drivability improvements we have seen. Being able to turn the key & drive off in any temperature from far below freezing to over 100 is critical for some customers, and we've achieved that.

But the real advantage came in offroad usage... a combination of tuning & air management have yielded a system that is very difficult to bog down/stall. Yes, you can force a stall, but we can now idle up hills, boulders, etc that would have stalled conventional EFI and a carb would never allow.

One of our key tests is to idle up a steep hill in a higher gear, to the point that even closed loop idle cannot compensate. Then roll in throttle with the engine bogged to 500-600 rpm. We see immediate throttle response, no spit, lag, backfire, delay. It just goes, smoothly and without drama. This is not something you can do with tuning on a dyno, and is hard to do at all without certain controller features that your typical aftermarket EFI for the sports market does not even think about.

- cold start... To get "turn the key & drive off" performance we adjust/control 7 different parameters during cold starts: fast idle air, spark, 5 different mixture parameters, and open/closed loop. You can get one to start & warm up with only a couple of these, and that's the approach most aftermarket EFI utilizes. But the pinz really responds well to adjusting these params based on both ambient air & engine temp.

So everything from Priming shot to spark is adjusted based on temperature and what point the engine is in during cold start. This is not just basic VE map & warmup tuning. Because we absolutely control the idle speed at any given point in the warmup cycle we can fine tune the mixture/timing to match. That's OEM level tuning, and was our objective. Our test is simple, crank the pinz and drive off. It has to respond smoothly independent of temperature. Lot's of tuning, none of which can be done in the lab/dyno. And very hard to do with open loop fast idle during extreme cold starts.

- This pinz engine is a unique beast...... as several have found out, assumptions about other engines, even air-cooled vw's do not play out the same on a pinz. I've rewritten portions of the controller firmware to account for unique pinz behavior. This is not just changing settings like all EFI systems are capable, instead, it's changing core controller behavior & control.

As one example... the engine temps on a pinz vary widely. You can have a fully warmed up engine see cyl head temps drop below the "warmup" threshold on extremely cold days. Likewise, there are times the pinz wants a very rich mixture, other times not. Idle, cruise, and under load you want different behavior.

We've taken Herbert's decades of experience with the pinz engine and refined the system to incorporate these nuances. Every thing from where you take your engine temperature to when to operate closed loop vs open makes a difference.

So when folks ask about photo's, etc, it's simply not an area we are interested in right now. That will come in time. Next will probably be a video showing hillclimb idle response & control. We've spent our time dealing with subtleties that are required for our customer base. We've had drivable EFI pinz's that performed well for over a year. But the advances we've made in the last few months are in the details.

I will say that Herbert is pretty sensitive to folks reverse engineering things that we have developed. He's had some bad experiences, which I understand & respect. So anyone is welcome to drive either the 2.7l or stock swiss pinz with EFI. But you won't see detailed photo's for a while and even then only if released as a kit to individuals.

Before anyone asks about availability: Herbert is uncompromising in terms of his expectations, and will not release a kit to individuals until he is completely satisfied that it can be installed by an individual and run right out of the box.

You can get the system right now if you really want it.... Herbert's personal pinz is for sale and has this system installed. The "pickle".... 2.7l, high speed tranny, disk brakes, custom short wheelbase, etc. It's a killer ride, and probably the hottest pinz around. I personally have been in this pinz at 80-85 mph during road tuning, measured by GPS.

Again, not a sales pitch. If someone wants pinz EFI now, there are other options. Especially if willing to cobble something together, and go through the learning curve. I enjoy that type of thing! But I like driving pinz's better!

Have fun,

Alan

[Jim LaGuardia]

Alan, take the stinkin chip off your shoulder. I never said my system was the best, and now you go attacking another forum member for asking a controller question. As for system aplications, they are limited to civilian use unless the components were shielded from EMP. For the record,the EMS computer is not. I offered a hardware kit because that is what people asked me for, Everything except the controller and trigger wheel is off the shelf parts(common sensors). As I said before, I don't care who's system or computer is used, EFI works well,for me sequential results were better than batch. As for fuel delivery, I have never had a problem with fuel volume or pressure and run a 100 psi pierburg pump.
There I shared another tidbit.
You should let Herbert make his own posts so your emotions don't get in the way.
As for market secrecy, the demand for Pinz EFI is less than 1/2 of 1% of those polled in the past.
And by the way, you still have not said who makes your controller, is it a Mega Squirt or super secret?
Remember, this is a technical forum not an attack, just answer the questions , unless you don't want to share info, then politely state why.

[pinztrek]

Alan, take the stinkin chip off your shoulder. I never said my system was the best,

Perceptions are most people's reality. Go re-read your dismissal of my initial post. Or your attacks on some of Jake's earlier posts.

You come out ray gun's blazing on anything which might be viewed as a competitor.

So my issue, and I think a fair one, was your immediate & public dismissal of our system to someone else. Which involved some pretty substantial mis-representation, and was based on zero factual information about our system.

So do I view your comments with suspicion about motive? Yep, at this point I do. This is the 2nd or 3rd time you've done this exact thing on this forum that I'm aware of. Others immediately commented to me in email and PM about your response tone.

So let's move on, but don't imply I'm the one with an attitude problem.

and now you go attacking another forum member for asking a controller question.

I've not attacked any forum members, even you. Certainly not for asking reasonable questions. I've been civil and remained fact based in my posts. I'm sure someone will point it out if I've not.

Again, moving on.

As for system aplications, they are limited to civilian use unless the components were shielded from EMP.

Lot's of assumptions in your statement. Are you speaking about your system? Which military? For tactical or support roles? For vehicles sold 20 years ago? Firetrucks? Oil exploration vehicles? Tour vehiciles & Safari campers?

I offered a hardware kit because that is what people asked me for, Everything except the controller and trigger wheel is off the shelf parts(common sensors).

Actually I like the idea of a partial kit. I'd have bought one 3-4 years ago, just to play with.

As I said before, I don't care who's system or computer is used, EFI works well,

And that is a design difference. We find quite a bit of difference in controllers, but not from features that controllers oriented toward the hot rod/import tuner market as much as long term reliability in the pinz environment.

Yes, I know there are controllers people use in homebuilt aircraft, etc. You won't find the big 24x24 maps there, with 3 levels of boost control, etc.

But even an aircraft efi controller has a tamer environment than typical pinz usage as far as humidity/water, vibration , etc. So we have found that physical construction/packaging/wiring does make a big difference over the long run.

The good thing is there are lot's of options in the EFI space now.

for me sequential results were better than batch.

Now there is a fair statement. And I can understand why you found that to be the case. No slam, just intake dynamics. But with a positive aspect as well, the same design choice allows users of your kit to bolt on like a carb, which is less mechanically challenging. That's a good thing, worked for GM for many years. (their TBI allowed them to use the same intakes for years)

I had carb flanges cut in 2002 to do a similar approach, but I was headed down the ITB (Independent throttle body) path to make sure there was equal airflow in all cylinders. ITB still offers the best response to throttle changes, but is overkill for the pinz.

Where I bristle a bit is when people (anyone) makes universal statements, about systems they have not see or touched. (or just in general, as some EFI tuner shops outside the pinz world do)

Back to sequential vs bank fire. It did not solve any problems we had, and does not offer any performance advantages for our port injection approach. Utilizing a properly setup alternating bank fire system on a 4 cylinder is very close to sequential anyway, but we did not see any performance hit even if we configured it as a basic batch fire system.

Again, given the pinz has unequal intake runner length and rpm range, and attempt to time injection shot to valve opening is unlikely to yield performance advantages. I could see how it might help correct airflow/trim issues between cylinders, but that's the long way around for that. It's better to have the exact same airflow to each, which OEM's go to extreme lengths to achieve.

[/quote]

As for fuel delivery, I have never had a problem with fuel volume or pressure and run a 100 psi pierburg pump.

Great. Others did have issues, and it impacted their results. Pumps themselves are virtually never the problem, it's the plumbing to the injectors, fuel regulator, and return. And even how you do the return to avoid aeration in the tank, etc.

You should let Herbert make his own posts so your emotions don't get in the way.

Herbert does not have much patience for forums. My posts are fact based. Things I know from first hand experience. If it's conjecture or opinion I say so.

As for market secrecy, the demand for Pinz EFI is less than 1/2 of 1% of those polled in the past.

So this would be of real4x4forum users? Not exactly representative of the world-wide installed base??

But OK, there is no demand.

And by the way, you still have not said who makes your controller, is it a Mega Squirt or super secret?

As answered before, it is a purpose built controller dedicated & optimized for the pinz. It will not work on other vehicles, is not commercially available, and uses both custom firmware & hardware.

This was the only way we could get the OEM level packaging & features we felt were important. If I thought a commercial controller would do what we wanted and would survive, we'd have used one. Certainly would be easier! But not better based on our design objective and customer expectations.

Beyond that I'm not going to comment due to agreements with suppliers.

Remember, this is a technical forum not an attack, just answer the questions , unless you don't want to share info, then politely state why.

I'll answer questions as I see fit. Anyone who is curious or interested can come drive our pinz's. that's the real indicator. Both the 2.7 & 2.5l are available for test drives. Several have already.

Alan

[Jim LaGuardia]

So to sum it up, you share no useable technical information with the group,Just conjecture , what a pity. And for the record, I never slammed Jakes system, I did post technical questions and when I polled people about Pinz EFI(long before Jake even owned a Pinz) it was on 4 seperate forums including this one. The data may be a little old but untill another poll is conducted I go by my results.
At least Jake answered questions with useable information, he uses SDS computers with a somewhat user friendly interface.
If your computer is so great why not offer it or at least the software link(if it is free source like SDS or EMS) That way prospective buyers could be better informed as to adjustments.
All I advocate is if someone is looking to convert, look for total disclosure before putting down your money. Chance favors the prepared mind.
I have no desire to reverse engineer anything Herbert has done, nor am I interested, And you have no Idea what I discussed with him in the past on this subject as you were not on the line. I was just glad to help when he and Jason called me seeking info which I know for a fact helped him. If he markets a system, that is great as Jake only made 16 kits and I only offer components and mapping for 2 computers. I'm sure there are others out there that will convert if the price is right.
Turn key is nice, but also comes with a much higher price.
No one is the absolute authority on this subject, to think otherwise is foolish.
EFI for the Pinz has been around since 1999, and has been done successfully in many forms, one of the first systems is Ron Schroder's custom made dual throttle body setup running on an old 1980's GM computer.
Then there was the adaptation of a GM 2.0L(So Cal Pinz) manifold mounted on modified intake runners( with the injectors mounted at the base resulting in melted injectors ). Next was the Draggus manifold(So Cal Pinz) that went on the Red Bull trucks, they had problems with vibration cracking the intake runners early on due to weight.
Back then injection computers were very pricey, those Motec M4 computers were over $5000 each as you had to pay to enable extra features.
If anyone has been an Inovator it was Eric Purdom, his ideas and innovations are still being mimmicked. R.I.P. Eric

[andy]

I probably ought to just keep my mouth shut since I have only a vague generic understanding of what EFI is all about. My interest in this thread was for my 712 which doesn't get the gas mileage my 710 does.

So, given that, since I'm in the market what good does a system like you are discribing do a guy like me Alan? If I'm misjudging, I'm sorry, but when I read your posts about the exclusivity of your system and how it is available for only a few, who apparently have higher expectations than the rest of us, all I see is Cha-ching$$$.

While Jim's sounds like it may take more work to put together his posts at least read like he's putting all the cards on the table.

I don't know either one of you, but at this point if I were to decide to shell out money I think I'd be Jim's customer just based on the discourse here.

My $.02 and opinion only.

Andy

[pinztrek]

So to sum it up, you share no useable technical information with the group,Just conjecture , what a pity.

I've shared quite a bit of technical information, you just keep making flawed assumptions.

I won't repeat it, but this all started with "what are folks doing in EFI". I described *what* we are doing, and even answered some of the *how* we are doing it.

First you slam it outright based on an invalid assumption, and now you imply I'm somehow inventing things.

All I can say is come to GA, take a test drive.

At least Jake answered questions with useable information, he uses SDS computers with a somewhat user friendly interface.

You keep assuming tuning & interface matter. What part of "OEM level engineering" do you not get? Do you have to tune the EFI in any mass produced vehicle made in the last 20 years or so?

Hint: Answer is no, only if you make changes in things like cam/valves, etc.

The pinz is a very straightforward engine. We have two variants, one for 2.7l with the advanced cam, the other for bone stock swiss 2.5l pinzgauers.

If your engine does not have significant mechanical problems (burnt valve, etc) this is a turnkey system. No fiddling, no learning curve, etc.

If it does have mechanical issues like a burnt valve, you need to fix that before attempting anyone's fuel injection!

Tuning is a means to an end. Once tuned, a properly designed and configured system will adjust for variances as an engine ages.

This includes barometric pressure, vacuum, etc.

If your computer is so great why not offer it or at least the software link(if it is free source like SDS or EMS) That way prospective buyers could be better informed as to adjustments.

Still don't get it. We are not interested in offering partial kits. You can be the partial kit guy, there is room for more than one system.

Hint: You can't have OEM level performance with wide variation in components. We use easily replaceable, but very specific components to achieve the current performance level.

As engineer, I have full control. But users don't need it, nor should they want it. It's a pinzgauer optimized & dedicated controller. No one size fit's all. It does what it does.

All I advocate is if someone is looking to convert, look for total disclosure before putting down your money. Chance favors the prepared mind.

Do you read source code before buying a car? Examine the maps????

What you care about is how it drives, and it's reliability. Herbert has over 3000 miles on his 2.7l injection. I have almost 1500 on my 2.5l, including extended trailer pulling at full throttle highway speeds on large grades, etc.

Anyone is welcome to drive our pinz's. Jake has (though in early tuned form). You've seen the videos of them running. The one in the shop is our "First start". IE: Day one, rough map, no road tuning.

And you have no Idea what I discussed with him in the past on this subject as you were not on the line. I was just glad to help when he and Jason called me seeking info which I know for a fact helped him.

I'll state again, there is zero goatworks content, ideas, parts, whatever in our system. Both Jason & Herbert have explained exactly what you discussed, and it has nothing to do with the current system.

Turn key is nice, but also comes with a much higher price.

We agree on this. "Much" is probably relative. Because we are not having to embed the high markup on an expensive controller, we believe you'll get a good value. No machining, no hidden costs in wiring, sensors, etc.

think of it as the heath-kit of pinz EFI if you want.

No one is the absolute authority on this subject, to think otherwise is foolish.

That's quite an admission!

EFI for the Pinz has been around since 1999, and has been done successfully in many forms, one of the first systems is Ron Schroder's custom made dual throttle body setup running on an old 1980's GM computer.

Bzzt.... wrong answer. I'll cut your "definitive history of pinz fuel injection short" by saying you missed some early critical ones, as there were MFI & EFI pinz's much earlier than that, and Herbert was involved in pretty much every one. Likewise, I was in email contact with Ron when he was first put his analog controller on his pinz, and later when he went digital. I still have the emails, as we were actively discussing ideas & approaches.

And none of this matters. What matters is how the system performs, and how happy people are with it long term.

Herbert will not release it to individual buyers until we are satisfied it can be installed in a bolt on fashion repeatedly and end up with a happy customer. And not end up on a dealer's lot with instructions to "get that POS off" like one recent system did.

So it's a different market. I know you don't understand that approach, but that does not mean it does not exist now.

Can we talk about technical stuff now????? Here's a topic: "What RPM do people like for cold starts (Say, below 40) VS steady state idle?"

Have fun,

Alan

[Erik712m]

Ok guys this has to be one of the best technical articles written in a while. But can we keep the person jabs reserved for me.

[todds112]

I guess I don't understand the "might be sold to individuals" thing. What is the perfcentage of the early Pinz's that are being operated by Governments or commercial operations?

I'm a little suspect of "We're developing this great FI system that works really well with top secret proprietary components, but you probably won't be able to buy it anyway."

That being said, personally, I would love to have a "turn-key" system. I think I could handle that install. Plug and play would be awesome.

Bottom line for me is my Pinz runs great on the carbs. How much is it worth for it to run "better"? 30% of the value of the truck? Probably not. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Erik712m]

Todd, from what i've read looks like Alan's protecting his hard work. By not releasing all the info for others to steal. Can't say that I blame him. Jim, is just a really nice guy willing to share my guess other's in the past have profited off him.

Bottom line for me is my Pinz runs great on the carbs. How much is it worth for it to run "better"? 30% of the value of the truck? Probably not. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

After riding in Jim's pinz I can say it is worth it! And Jim's pinz is a worn out tired one at that. But he was still driving it like a sports car. After we got off the black diamond trail, we went down a regular dirt 6% grade winding mountain road, he was shifting thru the gears rather quickly my wife was pissing her pant's. None of the other guy's were keeping up.

[pinztrek]

I probably ought to just keep my mouth shut since I have only a vague generic understanding of what EFI is all about. My interest in this thread was for my 712 which doesn't get the gas mileage my 710 does.

Hello Andy,

No reason not to ask questions, thats how folks learn. Lot's has flowed in the last few posts about how EFI works, different technologies, etc

So, given that, since I'm in the market what good does a system like you are discribing do a guy like me Alan? If I'm misjudging, I'm sorry, but when I read your posts about the exclusivity of your system and how it is available for only a few, who apparently have higher expectations than the rest of us, all I see is Cha-ching$$$.

All depends on what you want. No EFI system is going to magicly make the 2.5l perform like a V-8. Or make the pinz into a 30MPG econo box.

The difference in mileage you are seeing in your 712 vs 710 has more to do with gear ratios & extra weight than fuel/ignition system.

We do see significantly increased torque. You shift gears quite a bit less. Start in higher gears. You can also accelerate faster, but you start working against your fuel economy, especially at highway speeds.

As many people have found out, it's very hard to increase pinz HP. But for most, raw HP is less of an issue than drivability. Pretty much any EFI will improve drivability. We duplicate/exceed carb drivability with raw untuned maps the first day of road trials during development.

Closed loop idle is one of the biggest improvements when properly implemented. (It's not enough just to have it) It's the key to any temp start & drive away behavior. And incredible trail performance.

Plugs last far longer, no points/condensor to deal with. I believe you will see less fuel contamination in your oil from overly rich start/warmup seen with carbs.

No fuel smell in the cab. No different cold/hard start routines. No flooding.

As mentioned before, the system was designed to be installed by the average home mechanic. No machining, special tools needed. You will need to swap intake manifolds and crank pully. Low tech, but may be more than some have done. Luckily, this is something any vw mechanic should be able to do for you reasonably.

Pretty much everything else is simple hand tools most likely already in your tool box. No soldering, crimping, etc.

If I'm misjudging, I'm sorry, but when I read your posts about the exclusivity of your system and how it is available for only a few, who apparently have higher expectations than the rest of us, all I see is Cha-ching$$$.

What I'm saying is that it had different design objectives. Some folks want to fiddle, do everything themselves. Others want something like the factory would have released, have it install easily, and be reliable. And at a reasonable cost.

Any perceived "Exclusivity" is due to two factors:
- Backlog commitments
- Additional work required to document, stock, and release in kit form

You should not assume this means ridiculous cost. It's just that we are not ready to sell in kit form yet to remote customers with unknown mechanical skills. If you were local you could buy one now and probably get a free (or at least cheap) install. Or buy Herbert's daily driver. (You'd get alot more than EFI)


Regarding costs:
Because we are not having to deal with significant mfg & wholesale markup on an high $$ controller, the electronics are not expensive. Automotive OEM grade connectors are not cheap, and are a significant part of the controller/harness cost. But still less than most aftermarket "One size fits all" racing controllers.

The plenum is quite likely a little less expensive than some to mfg, as it does not have to deal with the injectors. We do have to mill, and weld the intakes for the injectors, but that's all jig based. Not complicated or expensive. So it's probably a wash. So my bet is that all the plenum/intake combinations have similar mfg costs.

As to the whole system price, It would be easy to throw numbers out, but that's not fair to Jim or Jake. And we'd rather have a fixed price with stock in hand. Since it's not for sale yet to individual users, we'll wait. I'll say this: we don't think there is a viable private market for systems which cost a significant percentage of a pinz purchase price. If it's not a reasonable cost, we won't waste time kitting it.

The other components in the system like fuel pump, ignition parts, injectors, etc are all things you'd have to buy anyway. We buy new items wholesale, as we don't want to deal with junkyard chasing & irregularities on limited lifetime parts. (There are reasons the cars are in junkyards!)

Again, the components are in wide use on OEM vehicles, and can be found in parts stores world wide. They add no more to the system price than you buying the part at advance/auto-zone, pep-boys, etc. (Cheaper than napa!)

The wiring harness does add some cost, but less than you'd pay for wire & connectors. And we can build on a loom faster & more accurately than you would be able to do. I'll tell you it takes several hours to wire an EFI point to point, and that's with experience. Longer to test/debug. So there is a big win with a factory harness in just assembly time, and a significant win long term in reliability.

We don't use or need an expensive wide band O2 sensor at this point. While they can be handy when doing an initial tune, etc, they are simply less reliable, and expensive to replace. We achieve our desired performance levels with common narrow band O2 sensors. Don't confuse this with lack of functionality in the controller..... We have extremely granular control of closed loop operation, and have the engine to run rich under certain conditions and in "stoich" (Perfect air/fuel mixture) for others. Once past initial rough tuning, all our final tuning & testing was done with the same sensor the vehicles will use full time. Otherwise you set yourself up for problems.

You won't find expensive racing parts on our systems, just known names like Bosch, etc. Tried & true.

While Jim's sounds like it may take more work to put together his posts at least read like he's putting all the cards on the table.

I don't know either one of you, but at this point if I were to decide to shell out money I think I'd be Jim's customer just based on the discourse here.

I understand, and if you like to tinker it can be fun. I do EFI for fun, because I enjoy it. And have the background to be able to do so.

Others do not, and EFI is not a hobby for them, it's a means to a very specific end. They want to drive their pinz, often offroad, with very high reliability. They don't want to fiddle tuning hot/cold starts, just get in & drive. That's our customer. You can achieve these things yourself, with enough time & energy. Depends on how you want to spend your time.

You'll end up spending some money regardless of which way you go. If you are willing to sort through junkyard parts like injectors, fuel pumps, etc, you can save some money with partial kits. I used to do that. I've learned it's false economy.

I will say this, don't read my responses to Jim's provocative fishing expeditions as that we won't provide details. All in good time. I've provided many functionality details already, but primarily in answer to Jim's "what are you doing in EFI" topic.

The functionality I've described is easy to confirm with a test drive, or video. They either work, or they do not. Hopefully we'll be able to make some treffens, and all can drive.

Have fun, and keep learning!

Alan

[pinztrek]

I guess I don't understand the "might be sold to individuals" thing. What is the percentage of the early Pinz's that are being operated by Governments or commercial operations?

All this means is that right now it's not released as a kit. We plan on doing so, but only after we meet existing commitments. And convince ourselves that it can be installed by home mechanics without snags.

Some of this is "hassle factor". When you offer a turn-key kit, you have to anticipate all the things that can be mis-installed, and mitigate them. It's far, far easier to sell pieces parts. And Herbert is pretty picky about calling things "good enough".

Regarding gov/commercial users, they are out there. More than that I will not say. Consider them our "imaginary friends". I'd not buy any system based on perceived or real user base. Buy it based on how it drives, how it's engineered, etc. It does impact our availability & priorities, however.

I'm a little suspect of "We're developing this great FI system that works really well with top secret proprietary components, but you probably won't be able to buy it anyway."

Yep, I would be too. That's why I said up front, what I'm driving is specifically not for sale yet. Not peddling anything. Jim started a topic which I'm interested & involved in. It spiraled down a bit, but I do EFI for fun. Certainly not for money.

Let's talk about the "proprietary" components:

- Controller. Not a one size fits all. Purpose built for the pinz & it's typical usage environment. Yep, proprietary, and we feel a substantial value add

- Fuel Pump to tank interface. Our design, and yes, we think it's slick. Many have called and fished for details, as this is a common problem area in long term reliability

- Plug & play wiring harness. Wire & automotive OEM connectors are commercial sourced. But, yes, the layout, design, interface, etc are specific to the pinz, our design, and our controller. And we believe one of the major value add's of our system. Wire one yourself and you'll understand. Chase an intermittent voltage spike, and you'll really be a believer.

- Plenum/injector mount/intake. Can't buy these commercial on any system. So by definition proprietary whether ours, Jakes, or Jim's. Again, we tried lot's of different approaches. We like ours.

- Crank trigger wheel & pulley. Nothing exotic. We choose to offer as exchange as machining is one of the biggest barriers to pinz owners.

- Ignition component mounting. Again, by definition proprietary, as it has to be done somehow on any system. We think ours is very clean, and SDP would be proud. We also know firsthand of several mounting/wiring approaches which appear to work but have long term issues.

The last three have to be dealt with on any system. So yes, we do have proprietary controller with wiring harness. It allows us OEM level performance. We think that's important. It is for sure to us, and enough customers have agreed to make us give it a go.

Fuel tank to pump interface is one of the key nuisance areas on EFI pinz's. Many ways you could do it. We tried lot's of them that we don't like. We've found one that works well on & off road. We'd like to simplify further, and this is an area we are continuing to refine. The main improvement will be in the area of installation time if we meet our goal on gen2.

Plan on lot's of fab/homebrew/debugging time in this area if you do it on your own.

Everything else is tried & true, commercially available. None of the proprietary parts are wear or limited lifetime items. All others are commonly available world wide. Mostly Bosch, with a couple of other major automotive mfg's. Nothing exotic. Just the right items for the pinz.

That being said, personally, I would love to have a "turn-key" system. I think I could handle that install. Plug and play would be awesome.

This is an expectation with commercial/gov customers. And desirable for most pinz hobbiests. We think it's worth doing.

Bottom line for me is my Pinz runs great on the carbs. How much is it worth for it to run "better"? 30% of the value of the truck? Probably not. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

That's the question of the day. better vs $$. All a tradeoff. For what it's worth, we agree with your percentage as a borderline upper limit for individual users. Guess it does depend on what the value of your truck is.

I'll tell you this, Herbert & I drive our pinz's far more with EFI than we did without. It's a dramatic drivability difference. Come give one a try. (I'll extend the invite to any in the Atlanta/N GA area)

Have fun!

Alan

[pinztrek]

Several have asked for the link to the video showing hot start and rev limiter in action. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQO7tCqNm8

This was still early in our development cycle, but you can get the idea. No closed loop idle control, etc.

Toward the end you can see full throttle bumping up against the rev limiter. We use a two stage approach of spark retard, and then fuel cuts to keep it at redline.

This is Herbert's 2.7l "pickle", there are other videos showing details on the pickle.

Have fun,

Alan

[Jim LaGuardia]

You are correct Eric, my current engine is very tired (125psi compression). But even as worn as it is I've managed to run it on EFI for almost 3 years and 18,000+ miles now. this was done to ensure the components and sytems would be tested in a real world environment.
As for cams, I have mapping for stock (2.5L and 2,7L)and a 2.7L W/high torque cam (stinger 4, and 8860)that have performed well.
I do hope to finish my new engine soon as it uses an all new grind that maximizes HP output even on a stock engine.
Milage is the ultimate question, answer, it will vary by seasonal mixture and ambient temperature but I am getting 13-15 mpg running Batch fire wasted spark, and 16-18 mpg running Sequential.

[andy]

Alan and Jim, thank you both for the information on this really interesting topic. Appreciate it.

Andy

[Erik712m]

Alan, Hi not to keep this going but alot of what you posted differs from what Jake has posted.
First, from what I read, your controller is preset from you guy's with no adjustment needed? Jake has stated several times in post that some adjustment, would be needed by the installer do to differances in gas in are local area.

Second, he has stated several times that not all engines perform the same do to what i'm guessing wear of the engine so some adjustments will be needed by the owner. From what I read in your post, you're saying all engines are the same even if the engine is worn the Efi is going to treat it the same. The worn engine is just going to preform like a worn engine with no adjustment needed?

Erik