Fuel injection revisited
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Fuel injection revisited
After many months of waiting, I finally got everything to put my "Beck" injection system into my truck
I will be installing it within the next 2 weeks, and then off to the dyno for fine tuning.
I am using an EMS 8860 sequential computer with a crank and cam sensors for sequential fuel control, and a wide band O2 sensor.
I will link to pictures soon.
The system has been running (on a batch fire Stinger 4424 computer)on one other 710M with very good results.
Since the old forum info is gone, I thought it would be a good idea to re-post some info.
I will be installing it within the next 2 weeks, and then off to the dyno for fine tuning.
I am using an EMS 8860 sequential computer with a crank and cam sensors for sequential fuel control, and a wide band O2 sensor.
I will link to pictures soon.
The system has been running (on a batch fire Stinger 4424 computer)on one other 710M with very good results.
Since the old forum info is gone, I thought it would be a good idea to re-post some info.
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- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:42 pm
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Yes it will be a kit . I believe Bruce will be marketing these as soon as all the mapping is completed. I am building him an EFI info page within my website which will contain all the info for purchase and installation.
There will be 2 maps available, one for "stock" engines, and one for 2.7L with higher torque output cam.
There will be 2 maps available, one for "stock" engines, and one for 2.7L with higher torque output cam.
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NO Mega squirt is more suited to dual throttle bodies.
The EMS computers are more like the Motec systems, without the outragious cost, and sample more times per second, and you don't have to pay to "Unlock" options
Here is a link for EMS info:http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/
The EMS computers are more like the Motec systems, without the outragious cost, and sample more times per second, and you don't have to pay to "Unlock" options
Here is a link for EMS info:http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/
MegaSquirt will also work with quad throttle bodies. I'm adapting a motorcycle quad throttle body with MegaSquirt. All I have left to do is bend some pipe and fabricate flanges for the intake to the heads. I had posted some pictures of my prototype setup on the board before it got hacked.
People use MegaSquirt for throttle body injection all the time. Jim, what would be the problem with MegaSquirt using your setup?
The upside of the setup Jim is showing is that someone is planning a mass-production bolt-on design. Adapting the motorcycle throttle bodies is more of a one-off technique, unless you have a source of multiple inexpensive throttle bodies. Of course, at the rate these young organ donors wreck these bullet bikes, there should be plenty of throttle bodies to be had.
-Evan
People use MegaSquirt for throttle body injection all the time. Jim, what would be the problem with MegaSquirt using your setup?
The upside of the setup Jim is showing is that someone is planning a mass-production bolt-on design. Adapting the motorcycle throttle bodies is more of a one-off technique, unless you have a source of multiple inexpensive throttle bodies. Of course, at the rate these young organ donors wreck these bullet bikes, there should be plenty of throttle bodies to be had.
-Evan
I'd say, given your criteria, go with the system Jim is putting together. I have heard rumors of other vendors having systems, but I have never seen one.
There is a pretty steep EFI learning curve, and there are numerous ways to go wrong (up to and including burning down your truck). Letting someone else make the mistakes for you, and who knows more about EFI and Pinzgauer's than you do, is a real plus for reliability.
There is a pretty steep EFI learning curve, and there are numerous ways to go wrong (up to and including burning down your truck). Letting someone else make the mistakes for you, and who knows more about EFI and Pinzgauer's than you do, is a real plus for reliability.
oh yeah, agreed. i'm very willing to wait til a tried and true slap on setup is bug-free and ready for market. does anyone have an eta on that yet? and how much does something like this cost?
also -
"one for "stock" engines, and one for 2.7L with higher torque output cam."
what's this 2.7 liter motor?! sounds like ANOTHER thing i need!
also -
"one for "stock" engines, and one for 2.7L with higher torque output cam."
what's this 2.7 liter motor?! sounds like ANOTHER thing i need!
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Looks like a nice bolt on system. And using an off the shelf controller is a perfectly reasonable design decision.
One comment regarding the Megasquirt:
What the Megasquirt V1 does not do is sequential injection, they will do batch or bank fire. Which for the pinz is really all you need. Yup, it will drive your 4 injectors, and you can bank fire them in pairs of two, etc. Later versions do sequential, but most have found it's simply not worth the expense & complexity.
Why do we not need sequential? Lot's of reasons:
- The nice bolt on plenum/injector system above is using the factory intake. It's an ideal approach for the pinz. But the factory intake has unequal length runners. Which makes the whole idea of timing the injection pulse to the open valve is simply not realistic. It will vary with RPM, and cylinder. You might could justify it with true port injection with the injector near the valve. But with the "wet-runner" approach the pinz is ideal for, (and the photo above shows) it's un-realistic.
- But what about per cylinder trim? Again, you have unequal length runners, and an unequal air feed with the Throttle/butterfly at one end of the plenum. A far better approach is to trim the airflow properly with the plenum design. Trimming the fuel will work, but is simply covering up the core problem, unequal air flow. Independent throttle bodies with exact air trim is probably the best approach, and what you see on critical performance applications. You'll see ITB on bikes for many reasons.
- But what about power? Let's be real.... the pinz valve design is the limiting factor. Add to that a very non-optimal intake runner design (I've done the math, they are too short for the engine torque curve/rpm range). Mfg's use sequential because they have to, it allows them to tweak the emmissions a bit more. But it's not power. Lot's of high power corvette engines on the road with bank fire injectors shooting at 90 degrees into the runner wall.
Put it in perspective: There are land speed records being made with batch fire Megasquirts combined with the ford EDS ignition modules.
What's the downside of sequential? Several:
- yet another sensor to engineer, tune, and possibly fail. Cam position sensors are much more complicated to engineer aftermarket. You can run a batch/bank fire with just a MAP sensor & rpm trigger, and can limp home even without one of those. Not true with sequential.
- Expense. Big time. More parts, more engineering, and much higher $$$ controllers. Myself, I think this is why aftermarket tuners pump sequential so much, it allows them to sell more expensive controllers, more dyno time to tune, etc.
To me, the real test of this is if a tuner will sell their plenum/intake/plumbing without a controller. Or as a lower cost, but lower power batch system. The reason you don't see a lower cost batch option offered usually is that in most cases there is minimal power/drivability difference between the two.
Don't get me wrong, the plenum/injector parts above are very neat, and I hope there are many sold. A bolt on system like this is ideal for the hobbiest. You'll still need to tune it, due to differences in engine compression/backpressure/air filter, etc. So while pre-configured maps are great starting points, you'll still need to tune.
In my first home-made EFI experiments, I went to lot's of trouble to try to pre-load the maps based on torque curves, etc. What I learned is the Megasquirt is so intuitive to tune that it was wasted effort. My first test mule vehicle (fiat spyder) started the 1st time I tried, and was idling smoothly with about 2 minutes of fiddling. within 10 minutes of road tests, it was smooth and very drivable, beating carb performance. Could I have refined it on a dyno? Absolutely. Was I at optimal power? Probably not. But I was way ahead of carbs, and tweaking over a couple of weeks dialed it right in.
This looks like great progress, and it will be neat to see how many make it on the road, what the real advantages are, etc.
Again, my comments are not meant to be critical, but more educational. The whole "sequential is better/faster/needed" theme is a bit of a pet peeve which does not jibe with the engineering.
If you have sequential working and don't mind the expense/MTBF risk, then drive it and enjoy the advantages of EFI!
Have fun,
Alan
One comment regarding the Megasquirt:
Lot's of misinformation about the megasquirt out there. Bottom line is the original versions will handle port injection, throttle body injection, Independent Throttle Body, whatever.Jim LaGuardia wrote:NO Mega squirt is more suited to dual throttle bodies.
What the Megasquirt V1 does not do is sequential injection, they will do batch or bank fire. Which for the pinz is really all you need. Yup, it will drive your 4 injectors, and you can bank fire them in pairs of two, etc. Later versions do sequential, but most have found it's simply not worth the expense & complexity.
Why do we not need sequential? Lot's of reasons:
- The nice bolt on plenum/injector system above is using the factory intake. It's an ideal approach for the pinz. But the factory intake has unequal length runners. Which makes the whole idea of timing the injection pulse to the open valve is simply not realistic. It will vary with RPM, and cylinder. You might could justify it with true port injection with the injector near the valve. But with the "wet-runner" approach the pinz is ideal for, (and the photo above shows) it's un-realistic.
- But what about per cylinder trim? Again, you have unequal length runners, and an unequal air feed with the Throttle/butterfly at one end of the plenum. A far better approach is to trim the airflow properly with the plenum design. Trimming the fuel will work, but is simply covering up the core problem, unequal air flow. Independent throttle bodies with exact air trim is probably the best approach, and what you see on critical performance applications. You'll see ITB on bikes for many reasons.
- But what about power? Let's be real.... the pinz valve design is the limiting factor. Add to that a very non-optimal intake runner design (I've done the math, they are too short for the engine torque curve/rpm range). Mfg's use sequential because they have to, it allows them to tweak the emmissions a bit more. But it's not power. Lot's of high power corvette engines on the road with bank fire injectors shooting at 90 degrees into the runner wall.
Put it in perspective: There are land speed records being made with batch fire Megasquirts combined with the ford EDS ignition modules.
What's the downside of sequential? Several:
- yet another sensor to engineer, tune, and possibly fail. Cam position sensors are much more complicated to engineer aftermarket. You can run a batch/bank fire with just a MAP sensor & rpm trigger, and can limp home even without one of those. Not true with sequential.
- Expense. Big time. More parts, more engineering, and much higher $$$ controllers. Myself, I think this is why aftermarket tuners pump sequential so much, it allows them to sell more expensive controllers, more dyno time to tune, etc.
To me, the real test of this is if a tuner will sell their plenum/intake/plumbing without a controller. Or as a lower cost, but lower power batch system. The reason you don't see a lower cost batch option offered usually is that in most cases there is minimal power/drivability difference between the two.
Don't get me wrong, the plenum/injector parts above are very neat, and I hope there are many sold. A bolt on system like this is ideal for the hobbiest. You'll still need to tune it, due to differences in engine compression/backpressure/air filter, etc. So while pre-configured maps are great starting points, you'll still need to tune.
In my first home-made EFI experiments, I went to lot's of trouble to try to pre-load the maps based on torque curves, etc. What I learned is the Megasquirt is so intuitive to tune that it was wasted effort. My first test mule vehicle (fiat spyder) started the 1st time I tried, and was idling smoothly with about 2 minutes of fiddling. within 10 minutes of road tests, it was smooth and very drivable, beating carb performance. Could I have refined it on a dyno? Absolutely. Was I at optimal power? Probably not. But I was way ahead of carbs, and tweaking over a couple of weeks dialed it right in.
This looks like great progress, and it will be neat to see how many make it on the road, what the real advantages are, etc.
Again, my comments are not meant to be critical, but more educational. The whole "sequential is better/faster/needed" theme is a bit of a pet peeve which does not jibe with the engineering.
If you have sequential working and don't mind the expense/MTBF risk, then drive it and enjoy the advantages of EFI!
Have fun,
Alan
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I'm looking for fuel control(16-20 mpg), the best I ever heard of a Mega Squirt on a Pinz was 12-14 mpg, same as carbs.
The manifold and crank trigger being used are adaptable to any good computer system.
With the EMS 8860 computer, If the cam sensor fails, it will revert to batch fire and use just the crank trigger.
I am staying batch on the Ignition, as I'm not that fond of spending more $$ for seperate coils.
I like the performance of the engine running the Stinger computer with this manifold and crank trigger
As for the Cam sensor debate, I use a modified MSD Vw distributor for the sync, very simple and very reliable.
The manifold and crank trigger being used are adaptable to any good computer system.
With the EMS 8860 computer, If the cam sensor fails, it will revert to batch fire and use just the crank trigger.
I am staying batch on the Ignition, as I'm not that fond of spending more $$ for seperate coils.
I like the performance of the engine running the Stinger computer with this manifold and crank trigger
As for the Cam sensor debate, I use a modified MSD Vw distributor for the sync, very simple and very reliable.
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In my back and forth testing between carbs/EFI I have been able to get a solid 18 MPG from my Pinz with CARBS!
The best so far with injection is 20 after I went to direct ignition and optimized the advance curve.
I learned early on that the exhaust system is a huge limiitation on better MPG... I have been testing since week#3 with a fully merged arrangement I am developing with a detailed collector.
I have logged 9,300 miles in my Pinz since September!
Good things are going on behind the green curtain!
The best so far with injection is 20 after I went to direct ignition and optimized the advance curve.
I learned early on that the exhaust system is a huge limiitation on better MPG... I have been testing since week#3 with a fully merged arrangement I am developing with a detailed collector.
I have logged 9,300 miles in my Pinz since September!
Good things are going on behind the green curtain!