Pinzgauer design

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:29 pm

I have been thinking about the design of the Pinzgauer. It appears that most of the weight is between the front and rear axel. This makes it practically a mid-engine design. Other mid-engine designs that I’ve thought about are the Porsche 914 and its low polar moment of inertia. That’s why the Porsche is so responsive and handles so well. It does not take much energy to get it to start a turn or to come out of a turn. Someone on this forum mentioned that a Pinzgauers weakness would be in the snow or ice. It would seem that compared to a front end heavy, like a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which would have a much higher polar moment of inertia and would want to continue going straight, that the Pinzgauer, with a lower polar moment of inertia, might be a bit unstable in the snow. Given that I have never driven one, I would like to hear from those of you that have driven in the snow. Do they feel stable?

2012 · Post by **2012** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:33 pm

here's a thought: achieving traction is all about psi. that's why mountain goats have gnarly fingernails. handling a vehicle that's going around a turn, and already HAS traction, is no longer about trying to get all your weight onto one axle - for the psi. that's a balancing act. i might add more thoughts to this later but i'm too sleepy right now...

hkmp5 · Post by **hkmp5** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:09 am

Hello Dean,
Being in Michigan, I get the opportunity to drive quite a bit in the snow. I can honestly say that only once have I felt particularly unstable in the Pinz and I attribute that time to my own stupidity! All in all I would say the Pinz does pretty well in the snow compared to other vehicles. I think the tire choice is the critical factor.....tall and narrow (high psi) has always worked well for me.
-Stu

Hawkeye Pinz · Post by **Hawkeye Pinz** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:34 am

This may be a little off topic, but here goes. I bought my Pinz in March so I haven't had it in the snow yet. I'd like to see how it handles in the snow and ice but here in Iowa the DOT uses a crap load of salt on the roads. Had anyone else had issues with road salt and rust. Should I drive the truck this winter or store it. All opinions are welcome!!

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:57 am

Hi,
I drive in Minnesota and Canada. If you think Iowa uses a lot of salt, come up north for a visit

Anyhow, as long as your undercoating is good you should be fine...
Additionally, I run a little lithium grease in the doorframes / joints / hinges and that seems to keep the salty spray at bay for those corrosion prone areas.

If you don't have a stainless/aluminum muffler you're GONNA see rust there. No way around it. The OEM Pinz muffler/exhaust setup needs some tweaking anyway IMHO so I am waiting for mine to fall off so I can have an excuse to get the "high-clearance" version from one of the Pinz vendors...

Protoman333 · Post by **Protoman333** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:49 pm

Dean...

Just my thoughts on this…

I donno about the pinz being a mid engine and/or not front end heavy. Close? Yeah, I guess. It could certainly be seen that way, and maybe it is...but tell that to the people that absolutely refuse to ride off-road in my 710 anymore from both rear tires lifting off the ground coming down a hill

...

Really. And it still freaks me the hel! out as well. and I know the easy solution is to just add weight in the back, but still...waaaay too many times one or both of the back tires lifts and starts to come around on you on the steep stuff. Accelerate to pull out of it and you learn that you VERY quickly run out of gear.

However, with that said, I dont think it handles poorly in the snow. we dont exactly get much snow here in Tulsa anymore, but when it does come down I will kill a tank o’ gas just farting around town in it, maybe even yanking a person or two out of a ditch if i can keep from getting a ticket doing it (yeah, its apparently illegal to help people in the Bible belt that is okla-stink-sac). The main factors to me are the lockers and the tires. My tires are on the fat side of optimum for snow, imo. Fat does not translate well for traction in the snow from my experience. Tall size and high pressure combined with as narrow of a tire as the wheel allows has worked best for me on previous vehicles, I just don’t like that look or the ride quality that goes with it. Besides, its not like ive ever been stuck in the pinz (in the snow, anyway! yet...)

With all that said, I will say that, in my ~ 6 (7?) years of ownership, I have been continually amazed at how fast you can take a corner in the dry…even with mud tires! Not that I consistently "hang" corners, but every once and a while, I will exit the highway in a “spirited” manner to freak the people out who were just all over my @ss. iow, leave them behind. It takes my home exit ramp about as well as my buick riveria and is actually a little less dramatic doing it. Ok, so that’s not really a sports car, but still...to me, it is impressive. Decent turn in and relatively easy to steer through the turn. Feels amazingly light to me...for what it is anyway. In fact, you could say that it handles like a mid engine vehicle...hows that for full circle?!!

Sorry for the babble. I haven’t posted in a while, so I guess I was making up for it?!

Don’t let the tires lifting off the ground thing scare you from buying one. Its just part of the fun. Really. if you dont smile at least once each time you drive it, something is wrong with you. Period.

2012 · Post by **2012** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:09 pm

yes! the speeds i achieve while cornering in my 712 appear to defy normal physics. someday i will own a 712 again, with nothing on the back. it will serve as my fine european sports car.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:24 pm

How much weight in the back do you think would help control the lifting of the rear wheels when going down hill? I was thinking about something to bolt on for when I was driving around without a load in the back. That way if I did need to carry a real load I could remove it.

mjnims · Post by **mjnims** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:54 pm

Dean
Contact Thilo Kaas T-Lo's offroad as to how this much weight works out for him. Any one who has had the opportunity to ride with Thilo in a 710 will tell you what he can do with the truck and weight in the rear.

PinzEOD · Post by **PinzEOD** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:38 pm

I was on that ride where the previous pic was taken...actually tipped my 712 in the EXACT same spot. Thilo was winched out, I drove, with Thilo coaching me how to do it. Any trip with Thilo is a learning experience.

M Wehrman · Post by **M Wehrman** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:34 am

My first ride was with Thilo in that very truck.There is a ORV area not far from his shop and he was eyeing a spot where ATV's were going up and down. I got out and watched as he went up..no issue, coming down was more interesting as the nose was pointing way South,He just nailed it and let the ft wheels pull him thru!

BTW,that water drum was in the back!

Thilo is a perfectionist in his trade and a hoot to ride with. We have not heard from Him on this board in a long time....our loss..

... Mark

Twin Pinzies · Post by **Twin Pinzies** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:45 am

In my experience, Pinzies suck in snow/ice. The lifting of the rear tires (on descents) and the fronts (on climbs) is attributed to the suspension design-hence the lockers.

Bottom line: Pinzies will never handle like a low center of gravity/live axle 4x4. I suggest that you just get used to it. I did. I call it "the Pinzie pivot."

EuroPinz · Post by **EuroPinz** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:03 am

Hello guys,

About snow don't worry, after all the Pinzgauers were build in Austria, to go over rough terrain and drive in snow. That is one of the reason why the Swiss Army liked them so much. So I guess the snow problem is solved. As for the tire size, well the Austrian matched them to their need and so did the Swiss. 245/85 x 16 can hardly be purchased anymore in Europe, so we drive 235/85 x 16 or 255/85 x 16.
As for the weight a Pinz 710 might need in the back - easy again. Check the difference in weight there is between a 710 and a 712 and you will have a good idea, since the Pinz 712 don't tip as easily as the 710.

Profpinz · Post by **Profpinz** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:09 am

Pinzies will never handle like a low center of gravity/live axle 4x4.

Should that read: "710 Pinzies will never handle like a low center of gravity/live axle 4x4"

I suggest that you just get used to it.

Should that read: "I suggest that you just get used to it, or buy a 712"

Twin Pinzies · Post by **Twin Pinzies** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:38 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again...
...Pinzies are SCARY on snow and ice!

With high centers of gravity, drum brakes, tippy suspension design, lockers (that incourage wheel slip!), a precarious driver position, no crumple zones, and weak bumpers, I would much rather be in a Subaru(traction control, airbags, antilock brakes, low mass, etc.) on slick roads! Don't get me wrong, I'm not trashing on Pinzies in general-but to say that they are GOOD in snow and ice is silly!

Don't believe me? Go see for yourself!

THE PORTAL HUB - Pinzgauers, Haflingers, Volvo 303s and more!

Pinzgauer design

Pinzgauer design

Snow stability

weight in the back