Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

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Garrycol
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Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

I have now covered about 1000km over the past couple of months since my Haflinger was registered for road use and I have maintained fuel consumption records and have only averaged about 15.3l/100km (18.5mpg) and I understand that I should be getting about 30 miles per imp gal - even with a larger engine.

Some background on my Haffie, 73 5 speed with 16/38 hubs (70kph). The engine has 87mm bores making the engine by my calculations 762cc. To provide fuel the carby has been changed to a Solex 34Pci carb off a NSU 1000 and has a 123 Fiat electronic ignition system with a coil pac rather than the traditional coil. That is as much as I know about the engine mods. I am running 14" rims with 185/80R14 tyres.

My Haffie has a top speed of with its larger engine and tyres of 79kph (GPS on straight and level).

Given all this I am only getting 15.3l/100km (18.5mpg).

What are other Haffies with bigger engines getting fuel consumption wise??

What carbies are you using and what mods have you done to allow the modified engine achieve its full potential.

I have to say that my engine runs great, on the highway will pull most hills in 5th and cruises happily at 65-70kph and since I replaced the shocks actually rides pretty well.

Thanks

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
Jim LaGuardia
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Jim LaGuardia »

Part of your issue may be alcohol content in fuel as it is not as efficient as 100% petroleum fuel. The size of the carb is also some of it, the original carb is Weber 32 ICS, or Zenith 32 NDIX . Larger carb = less milage, you are also moving more volume of air with increased displacement (8-10% more).
Just food for thought :mrgreen:
Cheers, Jim LaGuardia
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

Thanks for those comments, I had thought about the points you raised. While some of our fuel has ethanol in it - the fuel I use is 100% 91 Octane unleaded.

Your point about the carby is very relevant as the engine is 100cc larger it will obviously use more fuel in some circumstances but in others not so much. The Solex 34 carby has some good documentation and using the carby size calculator, for a 760cc 2 cylinder engine is actually a little larger at 35mm throat. I am sure that my engine will naturally use a little more fuel in some circumstances but to be getting almost half seems excessive. (at the same speed my V8 2.3tonne Landrover 101 FC provides the same fuel consumption as the Haffy and the landie is not all that much faster on the road)

That is why I am interested what sort economy other big bore engines are getting and what sort of carbs etc are being used.

Thanks

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
Heinkeljb
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Heinkeljb »

Fuel economy is dependent on some many things, there are only a few that you actually have any control over.

Air density - no control
Air temp - no control
Actual fuel octane rating - some control
Road conditions - some control
Air / fuel mixture - some control
Ignition (Timing and Spark size) - some control

So given you can change the fuel octane rating a bit, you could try adding some octane booster to the 91 octane rating to try to get nearer 95 / 99 - that would help with fuel economy a bit.

Road conditions really means that on a longer journey on flatter roads with no traffic, you will get better miles per gallon / kilometres per litre than if you drive in town on short trips.

Air / fuel mix is down to how worn the carb is. Can you get hold of a rebuild kit for it? If you think about it, the grand canyon was made just by water flowing along! Fuel flowing through the jets in the carb have a similar effect over time and can change their sizes quite a lot.

The air cleaner is also involved in this, to free flowing and fine particles of dust will act as an abrasive and wear things out, to good and it restrict the amount of air the engine gets.

Lurch has preformed better since I did a partial rebuild on the carb. I now have some more bits I can replace, so i will have to by some more gaskets and pull it apart again.

Not likely to be to wrong, but you could try replacing the HT leads and spark plugs. Do the current spark plugs have good colour? You could try a different heat range of plug if they are tending towards black.

John
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audiocontr
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by audiocontr »

Are you comparing each in the right environment? What was your average speed to determine the haffi mpg? What was your average speed of the LR?

My diesel pick up averages 11mpg once i get over 70 mph. I can hit 18mpg if i stay at 55.
1973 712m
1968 Haflinger
1965 Pathfinder
1978 GMC Palm Beach (Hey, its got 6 wheels!!)
M Wehrman
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by M Wehrman »

The only thing I can add is my Haffy gives me a lot of smiles to the gallon!
Stock means no imagination!


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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

Heinkeljb wrote:Fuel economy is dependent on some many things, there are only a few that you actually have any control over.

So given you can change the fuel octane rating a bit, you could try adding some octane booster to the 91 octane rating to try to get nearer 95 / 99 - that would help with fuel economy a bit.

Air / fuel mix is down to how worn the carb is. Can you get hold of a rebuild kit for it? If you think about it, the grand canyon was made just by water flowing along! Fuel flowing through the jets in the carb have a similar effect over time and can change their sizes quite a lot.

Lurch has preformed better since I did a partial rebuild on the carb. I now have some more bits I can replace, so i will have to by some more gaskets and pull it apart again.

Not likely to be to wrong, but you could try replacing the HT leads and spark plugs. Do the current spark plugs have good colour? You could try a different heat range of plug if they are tending towards black.

John
Thanks John - some very good points. I have still have half a tank left at the moment but on next fill I will try 98 octane though with the low compression ratio of the engine it shouldn't make any difference but i know a lot of people have said they get better performance.

The carby is relatively new but I have had to rely on the previous owner to know what he was doing in putting the engine together. My main concern is the internal jets are no the right size - any wear issues should be picked up by a decent tune-up guy.

Here are the spark plugs.

Left and Right - I can see where the oil smoke is coming from at start up - push rod seal I guess.

Image

The left is obviously carboned up from oil burn but the right which is below tends to show a slightly rich burn but probably not a lot in it.

Image

The listed spark plug for the Haffie is a Bosch 225T1 and some conversion charts list the plug I have (NGK Iridium BR7HIX) as an alternative where other charts list it as a BR6HIX - I cannot see what the difference between the two is.

So - do I leave the heat range the same or go hotter or colder and by how much?

Cheers

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

audiocontr wrote:Are you comparing each in the right environment? What was your average speed to determine the haffi mpg? What was your average speed of the LR?

My diesel pick up averages 11mpg once i get over 70 mph. I can hit 18mpg if i stay at 55.
Yes same environment - the big truck and the little truck give similar fuel consumption at about 60-70 kph - the difference being that the Haffie is 90% up its rev range where the big truck is only about 2/3 up its rev range.

But diesels are different again - my 2.5 tonne TDV6 Diesel will give well over 30mpg at 120kph (double the Haffie speed) with climate control on and stereo turned up to full - modern high speed diesels are a different kettle of fish all together.

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

So I take it that no one else here has a larger bore engine? I would be interested to know what carby people are using?

Thanks

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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TechMOGogy
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by TechMOGogy »

Try a PM to Shawn (westernair)
He has a big bore engine built by Leo out of Carlsbad, Ca
72 Pathfinder | 75 710M 2.7i | 96 350GDT Worker
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

TechMOGogy wrote:Try a PM to Shawn (westernair)
He has a big bore engine built by Leo out of Carlsbad, Ca
PM sent - thanks
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

TechMOGogy wrote:He has a big bore engine built by Leo out of Carlsbad, Ca
I have just checked out some of Leos YouTube vids and see he is using a DELLORTO 40MM CARBURETOR DRLA with a smick looking inlet manifold. Has anyone used this carby offroad climbing at high gradients??

Cheers

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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TechMOGogy
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by TechMOGogy »

Garrycol wrote:
TechMOGogy wrote:He has a big bore engine built by Leo out of Carlsbad, Ca
I have just checked out some of Leos YouTube vids and see he is using a DELLORTO 40MM CARBURETOR DRLA with a smick looking inlet manifold. Has anyone used this carby offroad climbing at high gradients??
Cheers
Garry
I can't verify (you can find his email on some of his YouTube videos) but I am going to bet that is on the Puch 500 racing motors he also builds and not on a Hafi motor.
72 Pathfinder | 75 710M 2.7i | 96 350GDT Worker
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

The vid indicates they are Steyr Puch 650s (643) taken out to 750 (763) so I assume the original engine is basically the same as a Haflinger - the engine then goes into a Fiat 500.

I am still very much learning whose who in the Haflinger world and still trying to understand what I have engine mod wise with my own engine - other than having bigger bore pistons I know little about it - hence my desire to track someone else who has a similar engine in their Haffie so I can get an idea what works and what doesn't.

Cheers

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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Garrycol
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Re: Haflinger Fuel Consumption - Larger Bore Engines

Post by Garrycol »

Contacted Shawn who but me in contact with Leo (thanks). Leo responded really quickly and indicated that my carb if in good condition should be OK but it would be better to go back to the an original Zenith. So as my car is booked in for carby work next week I will stay with that and in the mean time will track down a good Zenith and get it all set up and a new inlet manifold as my old one was modified to take the Solex 34 PCI.

Thanks ot everyone for the information - great stuff.

Cheers

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"
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