WisDOT is at it, AGAIN! URGENT PLEASE READ

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

If I can help somehow let me know. I used to a be licensed vehicle dealer in Va., a state known for tight DMV paperwork, and I sold "military" Unimogs, Land Rovers, Pinzgauers and C303's all as normal SUV's/Trucks with fully normal, usable plates like any car has. Though most were sold out of state but many of those had normal plates put onto them as far as I know.

I had also owned two mil. Pinzgauers myself at one point which used the same designation and plates that any jeep would have. My current 303 (ex Swed mil.) is plated the same way, fully legal for anything.

Tell them that there are lots of civilian Pinzgauers in the US that are exactly the same as the mil. ones and that the bill would prohibit them too, in case someone wanted to register one there. Most of those gov. guys might want to avoid a legal nightmare so bring up how people in WI that have 'original civilian versions, or want to buy one, will have to give up their cars too.

[russ]

There are a few ways to register ex-military vehicles in Florida. The best way is as a military vehicle, this gets you a lifetime plate and no further registration charges.

It seems the Florida legislature saw fit to include ex-military vehicles with "horseless carriages", i.e. really old antiques which also may obtain a lifetime registration and license plate.

Hopefully this will remain the case in the current economic times. Regular Florida registration doubled this year!

[Dreadnought]

Apologies for butting in like this, we don,t really have problems over here of the magnitude you do, in fact you can register a T72 Tank for the road if you really want to and a couple of people/eccentrics have??? But I find that most of the problems anyone, anywhere comes up against in Government - Local or Otherwise, are caused by one person who is 'On a Mission from God' (child got run over by a Pinz/Deuce/jeep or something like that!!!) in these days of nobody wanting to 'rock the boat', nobody in that person,s department really want,s to oppose them, they just want to do their time and collect their sweet pension. If that is the case there is no way to oppose them (unless you marry their boss,s daughter). Also isn,t it an American thing (protect our home industries) to make it difficult to register imports???? just an undercurrent of things I have picked up/read about over the years? As our government went 'Left Wing' they became more opposed (on all fronts) to big 4x4s of any race creed or colour, even to the point of the Mayor of London (RED Ken Livingstone) (Thankfully now Deposed!!) encouraging the Capital,s students to go out at night and trash 4x4,s on the grounds that they were polluting the city (and mostly belonged to rich bastards anyway!!!!) I know it is not an option for some people to 'Move to a more forgiving State, but I think that is what I would consider. Didn,t an American coin the phrase "you can,t fight city hall"???

[Dreadnought]

Just been over to the Benzworld Unimog site, if you think you have poroblems????? I just read about a guy having problems importing his ,I suppose ,Ex German/Swiss Mog.....he had to have it steam cleaned to an unbelievable standard, if the amount of dirt left on the vehicle can be measured in grammes it is shipped right back out to where it came from, even the seats have to be taken out and treated for bacteria!!!!! Now this was NZ or Australia and they do have some unique ecosystems that they want to preserve...I think you,d have to be rich to own/import a Mog/Pinz out there.....lots of beautiful country to use one in though!!!!!

[undysworld]

Hello All,
Thanks for reading this.

To DokaTD,
No worries on the rehash, it's just a deep subject. If I can't get acceptable language inserted into the DOT-sponsored bill, then yes, my Senator sounds willing to introduce a bill which specifically directs WisDOT to register Pinzgauers. Compared to the US ex-mils, DOT seems hell-bent on eliminating Pinzgauers. It's just that it'll be harder to gain widespread support for a bill which only helps 2 dozen people in the state, and that's about how many Pinz owners there are here. BTW, I've got a old pic of a Wis.-licensed VW that's powered by an airplane engine with propeller!!

Ed, thanks. If you wouldn't mind sending me your contact info, that would add legitimacy to your info, otherwise it's somewhat suspect coming off the internet. Also adding info regarding any restrictions on use would help. But I'll add it to my data either way. Thanks for helping.

Eric,
Thanks so much for your email. This is perfect.

Hi Vince,
Thanks. Any info like that you can offer would be great. If you don't mind, send along your address, too. The bills are about ex-military vehicles in general, in addition to Pinz's. So whatever statement pertaining to the licensing and use would be very helpful. Along those lines, the only civvy Pinz I know of is in Denver - Per's. If you could get me in contact with any other civvy owners, I'd be interested. I've got pics of Per's Pinz, but not much documentation.
And again, thanks for hosting this forum!!!!!

Russ,
Any info on registration options open to ex-mils and Pinzes in Florida would be of great help.

Dreadnought,
My wife loves Ireland and would move there tomorrow. Please don't write to her with any info regarding Pinzgauers being legal there. And yeah, it is an American phrase, the bit about City Hall. Did I mention my head injury? Maybe I'm just daft!

Paul

[Dreadnought]

Funnily enough, I like Ireland too (except the near constant rain! - probably why it is so green) I have no idea whether there are any Pinzgauers in Ireland North or South (but I,ll bet somebody will soon write in to say Hi if there are) On the Registering a Pinzgauer front....I may have similar problems to you, next year, as my wife and I are re-locating/emigrating to Poland....I don,t think there are any Pinzgauers actually located in Poland.... But knowing ex communist bureucracy I am going to have every document relating to my Pinz that I can find. And they like everything to be translated into Polish as well, even if they can read English perfectly well. I am also going to have to jump through some hoops with my Unimog as well, fortunately there are Unimogs in Poland. (I will get 6 months grace driving on my United kingdom registration before I have to have the vehicles registered in Poland. Then I have a restored 1970 MG midget to register as a Classic/Historic vehicle, and they have strange restrictions for Classics...It will have one initial safety test...thence it will be my responsibility to maintain it in perfect condition, I am expected only to use it only on 'high days and holidays' and when I come to dispose of it, I can,t sell it, I must donate it to a Polish museum????? I will report on how easy it is get my Pinzgauer registered, just in case someone else needs to know in future.

[Erik712m]

the only civvy Pinz I know of is in Denver - Per's. If you could get me in contact with any other civvy owners, I'd be interested. I've got pics of Per's Pinz,

Paul

http://www.pinzgauer.com/shpics.php?tab ... s&idnum=20


Also Dave Ds wasn't MIL.

[undysworld]

Dread,
You're making me feel lucky to be living in Wisconsin. That's a feat!

Eric,
Thanks for passing on that link. I'd seen it before and just not connected mentally. I'm seeing if I can't get that page set up permanently for reference, lest someone buy the truck from Willy. if I only had a spare 12K... And another hole in my head...

Brian,

PM sent.

Yes, I've looked at the statutes for homebuilts, etc. There are inspections detailed for those types of vehicles. DOT has so far refused to allow us to prove to meet requirements that way. In fact, I met with a State Patrol Sgt. in '08 and requested a safety inspection on my truck, just informationally. He told me he'd have to check with Madison (WisDOT hdqrs) and let me know. Despite 3 more phone calls to inquire, he never even called me back.

DOT is portraying Pinz owners as out-of-line. Here's an interesting quote/observation from the US ex-mil collector crowd about the matter:


Foreign-made (prior to certain years) vehicles has always been a sticking point with the DMV. In my opinion foreign and US vehicles should have been separate issues with the MVs and I'm not sure why this wasn't done. Once again, the majority of the MV owners in WI are US-made vehicle owners and not foreign-made and they demand the priority. It's not one-for-all and all for one if the chance of us ALL losing our rights because of a specialty vehicle is imminent. Fighting for the rights of historic US vehicles would have been far easier to argue and would have been more understandable to those in Mad-town. There are undercurrents here that are playing against the cause in my opinion and that of a friend of in the Madison govt.

I'm not here to get into a pi$$ing match about who should have rights and who shouldn't but at the end of the day IF the issue started primarily with foreign made vehicles like the Pinz then perhaps we should have stepped back and decided to include a separate bill dealing with foreign vehicles. As I understand it the DOT didn't like losing to the PInz lobby and this has exacerbated the problem. Wouldn't it be a shame if we all lose because of what happened with the Pinz-specific lobby and the rift with the DOT caused by this fight.

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=30

[russ]

Here is a link to Florida law which allows military vehicles to have a permanent plate.

http://www.flhsmv.gov/Leg2005.htm

The application form for permanent plate allows for use in exhibition, parade or public display. "Exhibition" is fairly openly defined and since I only drive with a group of Pinzgauers and Unimogs on forest trails and roads I comply.

<=== See exhibition/parade at left.

The big thing for authentic parade use is that display of the plate is not required. The permanent plate option is relatively new (2005).

http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/83045.pdf

They can also be normally titled for commercial or private use with a 1 or 2 year license plate. That is how mine is registered now (antique lower cost registration). Because the cost of registration doubled this year I think I'm going to the permanent plate.

One last thought, a legally licensed military vehicle from another state can operate in WI, it seems like that would be a problem for the Wis DOT.

[NC_Mog]

Paul,

That is a pretty shortsighted view posted by a fellow US-made MV vehicle. Picking on the Pinz is only the start; once one falls others will quickly follow.

I'll send you an email. My 712M is my third Pinz in NC with my first being registered in TN as well.

[undysworld]

Russ,

That's exactly the sort of info I'm looking for.

Any chance you'd put your address on that and send it to me PM'd or US Mail if you'd feel better about it? Maybe even just name and phone number. I'm just trying to make these statements as legitimate as possible. If they can verify your remarks, that's legitimate.

Thanks for the FL llink.

And yes, due to the reciprocity agreements between US states, ex-mil vehicles from all other US states can legally drive them in Wisconsin. If this bill passes, Wisconsin owners will be the only drivers banned from driving their trucks on Wisconsin roads. Nice huh?

NC-Mog,

THANK YOU!

Yes it is. This is the sort of attitudes I've been trying to change. It's even prevalent among Wisconsin ex-military vehicle owners.

This bill, if passed, will set a precedent of WisDOT forcing a group of vehicles into a restricted-use license. Everybody else gets to choose which type of license to use - based on their use of the vehicle.

It's way easier for DOT to do this to a small group of citizens at a time. They're too small to protest. Well, we're small, but we're noisy and mad.

I'll watch for your email, and thank you in advance for helping out.

Paul U

[Peresh]

Paul,
This can be a disaster if it goes national and you are right, it does set a precedence for other states to follow. I'm also very surprised that this is being done by Republican reps.

I have sent you my information that you want via PM.

Keep up the fight.
Peresh.

[pinzwheeling]

Unless our trucks are radio-active, this is more liberal BS.

Peresh.

Peresh, it's the Republican reps who are pushing this.
... I'm looking for sympathetic officials, no matter which side of the aisle they sit on.

Also FYI, I've met some excellent people at our Capitol, again, both Republicans and Democrats.

I wish more of our country's problems could be looked at from a less-polarized veiwpoint.

Paul

Paul,
... very surprised that this is being done by Republican reps.

Peresh.

Uh, why would the assumption be made that trying to limit our liberties would be done by Democrats? There are many liberal Republicans, and many conservative Democrats. Belonging to one party or another doesn't automatically assume that either one of them could give a carp less regarding whether you or I drive an ex-military vehicle.

Just sayin...

[Peresh]

Mike,

I think you are right but on the flip side of the coin, I've been bitten once too many times to know which party is helping and which isn't. I'm not trying to turn the Wisconsin problem into a Partisan problem. It was a comment made due to a reason that we face in NY. Too many things here including stopping or limiting 4x4 access to NY beaches and , anti-4x4 sentiments have made me a little trigger happy. Sorry about that.

But I agree with you.

Peresh.

[undysworld]

Mike and Peresh,

WHOA, I just checked and found that I erred. The Assy. Reps. that are the author and Trans. Committee Chair are both Democrats. MY MISTAKE. (See how much of a non-partisan issue this is? I didn't even know!!)

Wisconsin is an interesting state, in that the area right around Madison (Dane County) is a pretty liberal/Democratic area. It was a hotbed of anti-Vietnam war sentiment, somewhat akin to Berkley, CA. In fact, the Univ. of Wis. Madison campus was the scene of a bombing at the Math/Army Research bldg (if I recall the building's name correctly) where one employee was killed. Much of the rest of the state is more rural, and somewhat conservative. Lovely state, if you're OK with snow.

So the anti-4x4 crowd is probably strongest in Madison, home of our many lakes and bike paths. In fact, our favorite DOT atty is a big bike-racing fan. This is where WisDOT has it's headquarters. Conversely, most of the ex-military vehicle owners live elsewhere in the state.

I live in Dane Co., but perhaps counter-intuitively, my Sen. and Rep. have been greatly supportive of my plight. Sen. Erpenbach (D) cited my issue in his correspondence to the other Senators which asked for support of his bill. He and Rep. Pope-Roberts (D) have been terrific.

No, I think this whole shebang got cooked up by the DOT, and sold to legislators as a safety issue. DOT just got their ear first, so we're busily trying to undo what they've started.

Anyway, no party bashing please. I've already upset the DOT. We're trying to keep this as friendly as we can.

Paul