Is there any way you guys can find a lawyer who would pro bono file some sort of class action or discrimination suit against WDOT? Anyway it could go federal instead of state?
I mention federal only because then you might be able to get the voices of other Pinz and/or historic military vehicles heard.
Just random thoughts. Good luck.
Andy
SOS WI DOT Cancels ALL Pinz Titles!
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
WHOA, when it rains, if F-in' Pours!
I got another letter from WisDOT today, dated Jan. 9. It basically says "no plates" still. But it reads "In the meantime, we will not be able to license vehicles that are manufactured outside of the United States and are more than 25 years old that do not meet the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Standards." (What else does THAT include??)
So it would appear that WisDOT no longer considers a Pinzgauer non-licensable (is that a word?) due to it's being "non-roadworthy", "built for military use", nor "built for off-road use only".
I'm seriously considering taking the damn truck in to Madison and drive it around until they stop me and perhaps arrest me. At least that way I could get it before a judge.
We are TRYING the civil and legislative way. And I am trying to remain patient. But it's wearing thin today. One bill or another is likely to be introduced shortly, and I guess I'll saddle up and go give my opinion/s whenever I can. I'll see where that gets me. There aren't too many owners here, so any potential suit seems pretty limited, to me. Dunno.
Thanks for everyone's interest. Misery loves company, and its nice to not feel alone here.
Stay Tuned........
Paul
I got another letter from WisDOT today, dated Jan. 9. It basically says "no plates" still. But it reads "In the meantime, we will not be able to license vehicles that are manufactured outside of the United States and are more than 25 years old that do not meet the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Standards." (What else does THAT include??)
So it would appear that WisDOT no longer considers a Pinzgauer non-licensable (is that a word?) due to it's being "non-roadworthy", "built for military use", nor "built for off-road use only".
I'm seriously considering taking the damn truck in to Madison and drive it around until they stop me and perhaps arrest me. At least that way I could get it before a judge.
We are TRYING the civil and legislative way. And I am trying to remain patient. But it's wearing thin today. One bill or another is likely to be introduced shortly, and I guess I'll saddle up and go give my opinion/s whenever I can. I'll see where that gets me. There aren't too many owners here, so any potential suit seems pretty limited, to me. Dunno.
Thanks for everyone's interest. Misery loves company, and its nice to not feel alone here.
Stay Tuned........
Paul
Spend $1000 and buy a piece of swamp land in FL or perhaps just get a post box here. Get the thing registered in this state as a military vehicle with a permanent plate. Then really piss em off by driving it around legally without a license plate at all, just keep it in the glove compartment! When they pull you, have the legal info available for them, the most they can do is probably make you put the plate on the vehicle. If you do register it here get a special plate: F-WISDOT
I really hope they come to their senses but it doesn't look good. Considering Wis gun laws I don't think DOT is your only problem...
Good luck
I really hope they come to their senses but it doesn't look good. Considering Wis gun laws I don't think DOT is your only problem...
Good luck
If you didn't get stuck, you didn't try hard enough.
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
this type of action by the wis dot should be a concern for any HMV owner. This is one of those thin wedge issues that can spread to all 50 if common sense does not prevail. the only way to really deal with it is through a new bill being introduced, or trying to sit down with wis dot and get to the heart of the issue. just what is wrong with the said vehicle ? some states have a "kit car" rule that says you can register any vehicle, provided it meets basic safety standards.
best wishes and keep pressing your case. your congressmen have lots of issues that need attention. you issue is just as important as anyone elses
lou
best wishes and keep pressing your case. your congressmen have lots of issues that need attention. you issue is just as important as anyone elses
lou
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
I see on eBay someone in Wisconsin has their Pinz up for sale. That sucks, hope you guys still have some options for turning this around.
Miles
Miles
Lots of Pinz pictures here.......
http://picasaweb.google.com/pinzgauer.depository.1
'73 Pinzgauer 712M
http://picasaweb.google.com/pinzgauer.depository.1
'73 Pinzgauer 712M
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
Hi All,
It's been some time since any update was posted here. There's been a lot which has gone on since January, and it's time for new news.
There have been countless letters sent by Wisconsin Pinzgauer owners to their elected officials.
I have researched the federal laws and regulations which make antique imported vehicles exempt from FMVSS requirements. We're supported by NHTSA, U.S. DOT, U.S. EPA, Title 49 US Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations, at a minimum.
The Pinz which was for sale in January was Dave's. He's still got it and he's fighting to keep it!!
On Feb 8, there was a meeting between Paul Nilsen, WisDOT Asst. Gen. Counsel, representatives from Rep. Karl Van Roy's, Sen. Erpenbach's, and the Legislative Drafting offices and reps from the Wis. HMV groups. They discussed U.S ex-mil vehicles as well as Pinzgauers. But the HMV guys did not fully understand the over-25 yr. exemption and missed the issue. DOT's suggestions center around parade/museum uses only.
On Mar. 5, there was a meeting between Paul Nilsen, Chris Klein, WisDOT Executive Assistant, and Jerry Deschane who represented one of the Pinz owners. Basically, the DOT said that due to the "longstanding" policy of refusing to register Pinzgauers, they were not going to change their policy unless we changed the law or sued them.
On Apr. 7, I wrote to Paul Nilsen and requested documentation of WisDOT's decision to refuse registration for Pinzgauers.
On Apr. 8, another Pinz owner, Tom Landmann, received an email reply from Paul Nilsen in which s. 341.10(6) Wis. Stats. is identified as THE statute under which our titles, etc. were rescinded. He writes, with regard to WisDOT's interpretation of that statute, "This may not be the best interpretation, but it has been DMV's practice for some time and is probably not 'clearly erroneous'."
April 18 was a big day.
I received an email reply from Coleman Sachs, Chief Import and Certification Division Office of Vehicles Safety Compliance, U.S. DOT, in which he confirms that imported vehicles, over 25 years old, are exempt from FMVSS requirements.
I also received a reply from Paul Nilsen, wherein he provides a memo he wrote on Feb. 4, 2008 regarding Registration of Military Vehicles and Gray-Market Vehicles. In this memo, he writes that WisDOT's interpretation of s.341.10(6) Wi. Stats. is "clearly erroneous" and should be corrected immediately. He then goes on to support the ban on registering Pinzgauers!!
On April 19, five Wis. Pinzgauer owners met to discuss the problem and our possible course of action. We are proceeding with this plan.
I suspected that Paul Nilsen had not revealed the memo of 2/4 during the meetings he had on 2/8, though he had written it just four days earlier!! Conversations with attendees confirmed that the memo was not brought up, although it pertained directly to the topic of the meetings.
The memo was also not revealed during the meeting on March 5.
On April 23, I wrote to Rep. Karl Van Roy to advise him that this memo had been withheld.
I also have written to a state newspaper about the possibility of publishing an article detailing WisDOT's actions.
I expect that this is a long way from over. How much publicity WisDOT gets from this will be determined by how long they drag this out. If things get embarrassing, so be it.
For those of you who have not yet visited our website, please do. If you would write to our Governor and tell him that this must stop, we'd all be grateful. Our website is www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org
Thanks for your interest and help!
Paul
It's been some time since any update was posted here. There's been a lot which has gone on since January, and it's time for new news.
There have been countless letters sent by Wisconsin Pinzgauer owners to their elected officials.
I have researched the federal laws and regulations which make antique imported vehicles exempt from FMVSS requirements. We're supported by NHTSA, U.S. DOT, U.S. EPA, Title 49 US Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations, at a minimum.
The Pinz which was for sale in January was Dave's. He's still got it and he's fighting to keep it!!
On Feb 8, there was a meeting between Paul Nilsen, WisDOT Asst. Gen. Counsel, representatives from Rep. Karl Van Roy's, Sen. Erpenbach's, and the Legislative Drafting offices and reps from the Wis. HMV groups. They discussed U.S ex-mil vehicles as well as Pinzgauers. But the HMV guys did not fully understand the over-25 yr. exemption and missed the issue. DOT's suggestions center around parade/museum uses only.
On Mar. 5, there was a meeting between Paul Nilsen, Chris Klein, WisDOT Executive Assistant, and Jerry Deschane who represented one of the Pinz owners. Basically, the DOT said that due to the "longstanding" policy of refusing to register Pinzgauers, they were not going to change their policy unless we changed the law or sued them.
On Apr. 7, I wrote to Paul Nilsen and requested documentation of WisDOT's decision to refuse registration for Pinzgauers.
On Apr. 8, another Pinz owner, Tom Landmann, received an email reply from Paul Nilsen in which s. 341.10(6) Wis. Stats. is identified as THE statute under which our titles, etc. were rescinded. He writes, with regard to WisDOT's interpretation of that statute, "This may not be the best interpretation, but it has been DMV's practice for some time and is probably not 'clearly erroneous'."
April 18 was a big day.
I received an email reply from Coleman Sachs, Chief Import and Certification Division Office of Vehicles Safety Compliance, U.S. DOT, in which he confirms that imported vehicles, over 25 years old, are exempt from FMVSS requirements.
I also received a reply from Paul Nilsen, wherein he provides a memo he wrote on Feb. 4, 2008 regarding Registration of Military Vehicles and Gray-Market Vehicles. In this memo, he writes that WisDOT's interpretation of s.341.10(6) Wi. Stats. is "clearly erroneous" and should be corrected immediately. He then goes on to support the ban on registering Pinzgauers!!
On April 19, five Wis. Pinzgauer owners met to discuss the problem and our possible course of action. We are proceeding with this plan.
I suspected that Paul Nilsen had not revealed the memo of 2/4 during the meetings he had on 2/8, though he had written it just four days earlier!! Conversations with attendees confirmed that the memo was not brought up, although it pertained directly to the topic of the meetings.
The memo was also not revealed during the meeting on March 5.
On April 23, I wrote to Rep. Karl Van Roy to advise him that this memo had been withheld.
I also have written to a state newspaper about the possibility of publishing an article detailing WisDOT's actions.
I expect that this is a long way from over. How much publicity WisDOT gets from this will be determined by how long they drag this out. If things get embarrassing, so be it.
For those of you who have not yet visited our website, please do. If you would write to our Governor and tell him that this must stop, we'd all be grateful. Our website is www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org
Thanks for your interest and help!
Paul
Two faced, shifty politicians infest all States! Probably a lawyer.
I think you have unfair enforcement. Since a Pinzgauer registered in any other State can drive on Wisconsin roads they are setting arbitrary standards.
I'm thinking of selling .00001 acre lots of swamp to you guys so you can register here in FL.
Good luck!
I think you have unfair enforcement. Since a Pinzgauer registered in any other State can drive on Wisconsin roads they are setting arbitrary standards.
I'm thinking of selling .00001 acre lots of swamp to you guys so you can register here in FL.
Good luck!
If you didn't get stuck, you didn't try hard enough.
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
Russ,
This is definitely selective enforcement.
While I appreciate your suggestion, s. 341.40(1)(b) requires that any vehicle owned by a Wisconsin citizen falls under Wisconsin registration requirements if it is operated in Wisconsin.
s. 341.03(2)(a) sets the fine at less than $200.
If it seems like I know too much about Wisconsin motor vehicle laws as they pertain to Pinzgauers, I guess I do.
Nothing like necessity to provide ample motivation.
They've made me learn it, I might as well use it.
Things are just getting rolling around here.
Keep the suggestions coming, though. They are appreciated.
Paul
This is definitely selective enforcement.
While I appreciate your suggestion, s. 341.40(1)(b) requires that any vehicle owned by a Wisconsin citizen falls under Wisconsin registration requirements if it is operated in Wisconsin.
s. 341.03(2)(a) sets the fine at less than $200.
If it seems like I know too much about Wisconsin motor vehicle laws as they pertain to Pinzgauers, I guess I do.
Nothing like necessity to provide ample motivation.
They've made me learn it, I might as well use it.
Things are just getting rolling around here.
Keep the suggestions coming, though. They are appreciated.
Paul
Paul
Scary as it sounds you may not be the only one dealing with this problem. I recently went to the AZ MVD to register another 710 and they gave us a big run around. They wanted the msrp from the manufacturer before they would register it. I had them look up my 710 so they could copy the info which almost caused more problems then it was worth. The Supervisor came out to inspect the truck and immediately said they do not register military hummers for road use. Of course we got that straightened out quickly. I started the argument with the supervisor about why I could bring in a rig which, I as an uncertified welder could weld together then stuff an engine in it, put on the required lights and get it registered with little to no hassle but bring in a manufactured truck, obviously for offroad and highway use and you give me a hard time. I asked him what inspection it would take to get it or any mil truck registered, he never answered. He went inside and had one of subordinates come out and inspect the truck. I got the feeling it won't be long before the mil trucks here will have to fight to get registered.
Keep up the fight, hopefully your victory will make it easier when our turn comes.
Scary as it sounds you may not be the only one dealing with this problem. I recently went to the AZ MVD to register another 710 and they gave us a big run around. They wanted the msrp from the manufacturer before they would register it. I had them look up my 710 so they could copy the info which almost caused more problems then it was worth. The Supervisor came out to inspect the truck and immediately said they do not register military hummers for road use. Of course we got that straightened out quickly. I started the argument with the supervisor about why I could bring in a rig which, I as an uncertified welder could weld together then stuff an engine in it, put on the required lights and get it registered with little to no hassle but bring in a manufactured truck, obviously for offroad and highway use and you give me a hard time. I asked him what inspection it would take to get it or any mil truck registered, he never answered. He went inside and had one of subordinates come out and inspect the truck. I got the feeling it won't be long before the mil trucks here will have to fight to get registered.
Keep up the fight, hopefully your victory will make it easier when our turn comes.
Mike
This is just getting too weird. What do this people have against former military vehicles? Is this some more EPA stuff or just a prejudice against olive drab vehicles?
It's hard enough to get a grip on why Wisconsin would do that, but a western state like Arizona trying it too. It is worriesome.
Andy
It's hard enough to get a grip on why Wisconsin would do that, but a western state like Arizona trying it too. It is worriesome.
Andy
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
Mike, it is scary.
In the course of researching this, I did come across a 1994 GAO report on Gray-Market vehicles. As of that date, the number of legally imported gray-market vehicles ANNUALLY was less than 300. That's less than 6 per state, for anyone who's counting.
In the report, it seemed to indicate that NHTSA, U.S. DOT, etc. considered the "temporary" importation of nonconforming motor vehicles to be a bigger issue. Especially Canadian imports, since they can be driven here, and closely match NMVSS guidelines, apparently.
This report suggested the VIN compliance program (not sure on the name).
It also seemed to suggest that the opportunity to do something more readily could be done on the state level, as states register the vehicles. As opposed to federally, which would obviously require a law or amendment.
Interestingly, in his latest letter (April 24), Paul Nilsen, Asst. Gen. Counsel, WisDOT, cites a 2004 NHTSA letter of interpretation, wherein NHTSA supported California's right to cancel the registration of ex-military Hummers based on noncompliance with FMVSS requirements.
I'm not trying to be the boy who cries wolf here, but everybody on this board might want to consider how far this will be allowed to go before we all start screaming.
I'm not saying that if they succeed in Wisconsin, they will come after you too. But I am pretty sure that if they DON'T succeed, it'll be less likely that they come after your truck.
I'm screaming. And I'm not going to stop screaming until Wisconsin drops this attempt to circumvent federal laws and regulations which CREATED the over-25 yr. exemption. Please feel free, yea encouraged to join the choir!
Paul
In the course of researching this, I did come across a 1994 GAO report on Gray-Market vehicles. As of that date, the number of legally imported gray-market vehicles ANNUALLY was less than 300. That's less than 6 per state, for anyone who's counting.
In the report, it seemed to indicate that NHTSA, U.S. DOT, etc. considered the "temporary" importation of nonconforming motor vehicles to be a bigger issue. Especially Canadian imports, since they can be driven here, and closely match NMVSS guidelines, apparently.
This report suggested the VIN compliance program (not sure on the name).
It also seemed to suggest that the opportunity to do something more readily could be done on the state level, as states register the vehicles. As opposed to federally, which would obviously require a law or amendment.
Interestingly, in his latest letter (April 24), Paul Nilsen, Asst. Gen. Counsel, WisDOT, cites a 2004 NHTSA letter of interpretation, wherein NHTSA supported California's right to cancel the registration of ex-military Hummers based on noncompliance with FMVSS requirements.
I'm not trying to be the boy who cries wolf here, but everybody on this board might want to consider how far this will be allowed to go before we all start screaming.
I'm not saying that if they succeed in Wisconsin, they will come after you too. But I am pretty sure that if they DON'T succeed, it'll be less likely that they come after your truck.
I'm screaming. And I'm not going to stop screaming until Wisconsin drops this attempt to circumvent federal laws and regulations which CREATED the over-25 yr. exemption. Please feel free, yea encouraged to join the choir!
Paul
Paul, I know you've made some headway on Steel Soldiers, but I think that most fans of former military vehicles (on that site, this one, Yahoo, etc.) are just too complacent about your situation to realize that they (we) could very well be next.
Am I right in understanding that you all are at the point that letters/emails from out of state people to the powers that be in Wisconsin could be beneficial to you?
Andy
Am I right in understanding that you all are at the point that letters/emails from out of state people to the powers that be in Wisconsin could be beneficial to you?
Andy