Trailer advice?

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audiocontr
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Trailer advice?

Post by audiocontr »

I did a search here but did not find the answer I was looking for. I'm looking to purchase a trailer for my 710 (eventually a 712 if i upgrade) and was curious what I need to look for. I know nothing about trailers nor appropriate cost. I'd prefer not to go crazy, so something appropriate but not over board.

Would most full size v8 trucks be appropriate for towing said trailer and Pinz a few hours? I'm not thinking cross country...
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edzz
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Post by edzz »

For the Pinz to tow? Or to be towed on?
audiocontr wrote: Would most full size v8 trucks be appropriate for towing said trailer and Pinz a few hours? I'm not thinking cross country...
Guessing to be towed on?

Ed
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
OhioPinz
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Post by OhioPinz »

I suppose there is a question somewhere?????

Or just a statement...

?????????????
undysworld
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Post by undysworld »

Well, I ain't no trailer professor, but...

I've had occasion to tow both my 712 and a buddy's 710 for short distances (up to 50 mi. probably). I used my neighbor's 20' flatbed tandem axled trailer and towed it with his Chevy 2500 pickup with a v8. The truck had sufficient power to easily move either truck on the trailer, and with the surge-brakes sufficient braking power to feel quite confident stopping. I'd expect electric brakes to work as well, as I've used them towing a trailered Bobcat. I'd have no hesitancy to tow such a rig a few hundred miles or more.
M Wehrman
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Post by M Wehrman »

Tandem axle,elect trailer brakes(surge brake,although a good idea had "issues" I think they no longer use them) and a brake controller(duh). I would look for a trailer with a GVW rating of around 8K LBS or more (the bigger the heavier) .I have pulled my 712/ trailer behind an F-150 and behind an F-250 Diesel. The big difference was maintaining speed and fuel economy.Your terrain is more hilly than mountainous,so a 1/2 ton will get you there.In this area a solid car hauler for your needs hovers around $2500-3000. Craigs list would be where I would start. No more choppy sentences,
Mark
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Kirby
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Post by Kirby »

You said thinking of upgrading to a 712...... Do I have a deal for you.....

My 712 is for sale - and it can come with a trailer that I tow it on when I bring it back to California (302 miles). I use a 1500 Z71 Suburban, no problem other than the fuel economy sucks. I have electric brakes on the trailer.
Pinzing is AWESOME.
undysworld
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Post by undysworld »

Oops, sorry I should have mentioned that the surge brake system is pretty much extinct, as Mark pointed out. They are only legal in Wisconsin as a 'grandfathered' trailer, from what I understand. I believe the "issues" were mainly maintenance/repair concerns. My neighbor has always maintained his in good condition, so it still functions as designed. But you likely won't find one for sale, I'd bet.

That all said, IMHO, a poorly maintained trailer is a potential accident whether it's got surge- or electric-brakes or no brakes at all!
LibTimothy
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Towing the Pinz

Post by LibTimothy »

Audiocontr,

I tow my pinz often. I bought a duel axle 7000 lbs car hauler trailer, which I bought used from a trailer dealer. Shop around, as I paid between a grand less and 3 grand less for this one year old used trailer than what they wanted for a new trailer.

As for trucks to tow this, bigger is always better. I started off with an older Dodge 3500 with a 360 V8. This truck was not the correct truck for towing anything. The only good outcome was being able to talk the Wife into a F350 Diesel pickup, which is over kill for towing the pinz, but is a nicer truck.

Dodge.
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Ford
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Check with local trailer dealers for good car haulers. Trailer brakes are a must have. Bigger tow rig is better.


Timothy
When the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
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David Dunn
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Post by David Dunn »

To my dismay, this is going to be a long post.. and most all of you know I hate to write long posts! I have several points to covers. Most cover "legalities", and some, common sense. I am also going to be using terms that you need to be aware of. GVW(R) = gross vehicle weight (rating). [or trailer]. CGVW(R) = combined gross vehicle weight (rating) [ total weight of tow vehicle and trailer]

First, A trailer to haul a Pinz ( up to a stock 712M) needs to be a minimum of tandom axle, 7000lb GVW, with a 6' x 14' bed ( I have a 6'8" x 14' bed size, because of the Supacat's width). This is an estimate of an empty trailer weighing between 1700 to 2000 lbs, and a 712M at 5000lbs. If you add equipment to the Pinz, throw camping gear or whatever in the Pinz, this has to be considered. People have used from 12' to 20' long trailers for Pinzes, and the consideration there is the actual weight of the trailer and towing around and maneuvering the large bed ( not a big deal to some, unless you have limited storage, or tight maneuvering area to work).
Any trailer over 3000lbs must have brakes. Other than the "ulta" light trailers, anything up to a 7000GVW trailer will usually have a 2" ball, and on a tandom axle trailer, only one axle is required to have brakes. 10,000GVW trailers will have 2 1/4" ball, and both axles must have brakes. Depending on the state, most people driver's licence only allows them to pull a maximum trailer of 10,000lbs before needing an addenum to their licence ( not commonly known, and usually only enforced by state police, not local LEOs)

In the US, electric trailer brakes are the 'norm' for the common person, but surge brakes are still also used widely by rental yards and for boat trailers. Surge brakes do not require any additional equipment from the tow vehicle than the electrical for the lights. And for the person that regularly tows a 'surged braked' trailer, a electrical wire when in reverse to lockout the brakes when backing up ( rather than manually locking them out). I can see where surge brakes would be very handy on a boat trailer where the rear axle would be in the water, and it would play hell on electrical components. My personal experience with surge brakes has been from "scary" to " what a nice setup" .
The scary adventure was towing a 10000lb cement trailer with a 9000lb ( truck and load weight) Dodge Dually pickup. The trailer brakes hadn't been maintained by the rental yard( or adjusted for the load) that the brake were either full on, or full off, which created a lurching from the trailer where when I would attempt gradual braking, it would push the truck, and when they did grab, I thought my rear bumper was going to be pulled off, or me thrown through the windshield..... not a fun experience.
As for the joy of surge brakes, my exUK MoD MK3 Sankey trailer has been brainless delight to tow. If I tow it empty, I can lockout the brakes so it is easliy backed up . I've towed it with everything from my Pinz to my Dodge truck and even with the Supacat, with a 250gallon (2000lb) water tank on it. I've also towed it behind my Toyota Highlander Hybreid without a 2nd thought.

Electric brakes require a brake controller in the cab to activate the trailer brakes automatically ( or manual override for some conditions), and set the amount of braking force needed for the weight of the trailer and load. The heavier the trailer and load, the more electric brake (gain) is needed to stop. When going down a hill, the trailer may want to push you faster, by stepping on the brake pedal, you may slow down, but the trailer may want to fishtail a little, so you gently apply trailer brake manually to slow the trailer.


Now for the truck.... what people have used and done, and what SHOULD be used are two different things, and I'll be introducing something most people never think of when purchasing a truck.
First, buying a truck with a V8 doesn't mean it's rating for towing anything. There are many trucks manufactured for "personal", occasional hauling, and more highway transportation. These truck are " 1/2 ton" models with a rear axle ratio of 3.20ish to 3.40ish. These are great for mileage, but offer little in gearing needed to move heavy trailers without overstressing driveline components. Trucks with 3.73 and 4.10 rear axles are designed for the heavier loads. Some 1/2 ton trucks can be found with this ratios, but are the norm for 3/4 and 1 ton pickups. Next are the brakes, as you go from 1/2T, to 3/4T to 1T pickups, the brakes get bigger quickly, and braking power goes up greatly.
Now for thing no one ever thinks about... GVWR, trailer weight and CGVWR. It sounds simple, but the 3 don't always add up like you'd think. If you ever look at a manufacturer's towing guide, they'll list the GVW for a pickup, then the maximum trailer weight it can pull, then the CGVW.... take the GVWR of the truck, add the trailer weight, and you got the CGVW..... WRONG. though you'd think that is the way it would be done, the trailer's tongue weight is on the tow vehicle and is counted against the payload of the vehicle.... thus, if you have a 7000lb trailer, tongue weight should be between 10 and 15% (700+ to 1000lb). This means that the payload capacity of the tow vehicle is reduced by this amount, so a 1/2T pickup that may be 1400 to 1800 lb payload capacity has now been lowered to anywhere to 400 to 1100 lb payload ( including driver and and any passengers, which is part of the payload). My recommendation is a 3/4t pickup with 3.73RR if you plan to pull the trailer occasionally, and use the pickup for other things.... this would give you better mileage overall than a 4.10RR ( unless you keep the truck loaded most the time) 3/4 ton pickups ( depending on the era of manufacture, type and equipment) will have a payload capacity of 2800 to 3800lbs. 1ton pickups from 3700lbs to 4300lbs. This would give you the ability to have a large slide-in camper on the truck and still trailer the Pinz.

For those that don't think any of this is important. If ( heaven forbid) you ever have and accident while towing, and it happens on an interstate highway where the state police respond and investigate, all these factors come into placing blame...if you' overloaded in anyway, you could end up fully responsible for something that wasn't your fault in the first place ( that's my faith in our legal system talking :roll: ).

Dave
.
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HafWit
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Post by HafWit »

Geez, Dave.....you must be exhausted!!!:shock: Nice of you to take the time to set everybody straight :D
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David Dunn
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Post by David Dunn »

Hi Greg, definitely wore out my fingers…it had to surprise some, especially those that know about my 3 finger rule ( and that post is x4).
It brought back memories of Juergen and I batting around ideas of making a light trailer that a Pinz could tow , back before this forum came into being.
What I recall was building a tub type trailer using a torsion spring axle (for ground clearance), a surge brake actuator and disc brakes. At the time, the difficulty (inconvenience) was to have a hub made to the Pinz lug pattern, so all the rims would match. I remember that I had all the parts manufacturer all set up, but iirc, the total cost would have been more than what most Pinz owners would go for. Since then, the Sankey Mk3 trailer has everything that we had discussed, only with a straight axle and leaf springs.
Unfortunately for us Yanks, the Brits also make a very nice trailer for hauling cars. Ifor William make some very nice 3.5KG ( 7700lb) trailers with a low deck and small, hi capacity/low profile tires.
These trailers use surge brakes, and many have a tilt bed design. http://www.iwt.co.uk/products/car-transporter
These tires are also the only reason I never imported one of these trailers. Though the size is available in the US, the load range is far below that of which the UK tires are rated, and without the DOT label, are not legal on American roads
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .




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4x4Pinz
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Post by 4x4Pinz »

I have towed my 710 and 712 all over the western US with this tilt trailer. The tires appear to be rubbing fender flares but it is a photo angle issue. Trailer has electric brakes and an 8500# rating. It is towed by an '01 F350 diesel that has been chipped, with the tranny custom built for towing. This package works very well.

I can't believe how little my girl was back then, almost 6 years ago.

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M Wehrman
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Post by M Wehrman »

And now She's all grown up, 8) ,and you have more gray hair! :lol: Kids will do that to ya! :lol:
Mark
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4x4Pinz
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Post by 4x4Pinz »

Yeah but Mark now she wants to drive the pinz :shock: and she has asked to take the 350 to take her friends out on the town :shock: :shock: :shock:
Talk about grey hair
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