718 SOCOM front springs
718 SOCOM front springs
Hello all,
I was wondering what you all have done about your trucks having such a heavy front spring? I am seeing significant cupping on the outer 2" of the tire due to the stiff springs. It is also pretty annoying when I hit a decent "whoop" and the suspension bottoms out...with force! I appreciate any input. One thing I am hoping to find is the proper spring rate for a Pinz NOT loaded for war but better suited to overland travels.
Thanks,
Phil
I was wondering what you all have done about your trucks having such a heavy front spring? I am seeing significant cupping on the outer 2" of the tire due to the stiff springs. It is also pretty annoying when I hit a decent "whoop" and the suspension bottoms out...with force! I appreciate any input. One thing I am hoping to find is the proper spring rate for a Pinz NOT loaded for war but better suited to overland travels.
Thanks,
Phil
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
I think you are describing different problems than just the springs.
The "stiffness" of the spring may not be the problem - if you are having wear on the outer edge due to the swing type suspension - then you might need to adjust the spring length on the front - this can be done by the length of the pin at the bottom of the spring - or - perhaps one of the end "rings" of the spring could be cut off to make the spring shorter (I did this on the rear springs of my 710M since I didn't carry heavy loads in it that often).
The bottoming out more of an issue of the shocks usually - perhaps yours are worn out? There also is a rubber dampner inside of the front springs which should help with avoiding hard hits. If the springs were too "stiff" then the suspension shouldn't be bottoming out often... and it would ride "harsh".
I wonder if the front shocks are the same as the gasser Pinzgauers - there are a number of good shocks available for them to consider.
The "stiffness" of the spring may not be the problem - if you are having wear on the outer edge due to the swing type suspension - then you might need to adjust the spring length on the front - this can be done by the length of the pin at the bottom of the spring - or - perhaps one of the end "rings" of the spring could be cut off to make the spring shorter (I did this on the rear springs of my 710M since I didn't carry heavy loads in it that often).
The bottoming out more of an issue of the shocks usually - perhaps yours are worn out? There also is a rubber dampner inside of the front springs which should help with avoiding hard hits. If the springs were too "stiff" then the suspension shouldn't be bottoming out often... and it would ride "harsh".
I wonder if the front shocks are the same as the gasser Pinzgauers - there are a number of good shocks available for them to consider.
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Just remove the inner helper spring that was added.
- David Dunn
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Arcadia, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
As Haf-e said,
If you're riding on the outer edge of the tires, the springs are too heavy ( and if you have additional helper springs in front, get rid of them). The pins can be shorten also.
But, if you are bottoming out over bumps, your shocks are bad and need to be replaced.
I believe you have downloaded the part manual from the Turbo D forum, in there you can find the different choices for front springs if you want to try that way ( I think they're 5, iirc).
Post a pic of the inside of the front tire to see what your springs/pin combo look like.
Also, how many miles have you put on those tires, like a 710/12, you will have positive camber with an empty truck and the tires need to be flipped on the rims.
Though the 716 and 718 are basically the same in the suspension as their 710 and 712 counterparts, the TDs are heavier with the 2.4TD 6 cylinder engine and cooling system.
This would also explain the "nose up" on my 718 because of the lighter 2.5 TDI 5 cylinder engine.....and all this time, I thought it was looking down on everyone else.![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
If you're riding on the outer edge of the tires, the springs are too heavy ( and if you have additional helper springs in front, get rid of them). The pins can be shorten also.
But, if you are bottoming out over bumps, your shocks are bad and need to be replaced.
I believe you have downloaded the part manual from the Turbo D forum, in there you can find the different choices for front springs if you want to try that way ( I think they're 5, iirc).
Post a pic of the inside of the front tire to see what your springs/pin combo look like.
Also, how many miles have you put on those tires, like a 710/12, you will have positive camber with an empty truck and the tires need to be flipped on the rims.
Though the 716 and 718 are basically the same in the suspension as their 710 and 712 counterparts, the TDs are heavier with the 2.4TD 6 cylinder engine and cooling system.
This would also explain the "nose up" on my 718 because of the lighter 2.5 TDI 5 cylinder engine.....and all this time, I thought it was looking down on everyone else.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Maybe you could go unloaden on a scale and we give you the right bottom pin hight and the right spring.
Do you have some colour stripes on the springs?
btw: The TD Shocks are much different to the Petrol ones.
They have a damping function at the max length with a small steel spring.
Do you have some colour stripes on the springs?
btw: The TD Shocks are much different to the Petrol ones.
They have a damping function at the max length with a small steel spring.
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Ok, I have been trying to reply to this thread for quite some time, but I keep getting an error message & Vince doesn't know why or what to do about it. Must just be me...
Anyway, my truck weights 6,940 lbs empty. I think that I gave the wrong explanation about the way the springs are "bottoming out". They are actually making the nose sit high, and when I cross over a hole, the spring will forcefully slam the wheel down to full extension. When I hit a bump, it does not "bottom out" by compressing the spring/shock but, rather, launches the nose skyward and causes the wheel to, again, forcefully slam down to full droop. The spring pin at the bottom is approximately 2" long. I have photos, but can't get them to post.
I hope this clears things up a bit. I hope this will FINALLY post!!!
Thanks,
Phil
Anyway, my truck weights 6,940 lbs empty. I think that I gave the wrong explanation about the way the springs are "bottoming out". They are actually making the nose sit high, and when I cross over a hole, the spring will forcefully slam the wheel down to full extension. When I hit a bump, it does not "bottom out" by compressing the spring/shock but, rather, launches the nose skyward and causes the wheel to, again, forcefully slam down to full droop. The spring pin at the bottom is approximately 2" long. I have photos, but can't get them to post.
I hope this clears things up a bit. I hope this will FINALLY post!!!
Thanks,
Phil
- David Dunn
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Arcadia, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
That explanation sounds more like the shocks being bad, and there is no dampening being done in either direction.
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
The shocks will be replaced soon, but I think the spring is just wound too tight, as it were. Maybe I need to shorten the bottom pin height. Also, the springs had been painted, or powder coated before it found its way into my hands so I don't know what colors they may have been striped with, sorry.
- David Dunn
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Arcadia, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Changing the pin length will only lower the front end and not change load on the springs. That is unless the shocks are the wrong size and restrict axle travel. Unlike the gas Pinzes, TD's do not have limiting straps to control the axle travel.
Before doing anything else check the shocks for dampening action and extention /contraction off the truck to be sure they're not the problem.
Before doing anything else check the shocks for dampening action and extention /contraction off the truck to be sure they're not the problem.
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
- Jimm391730
- Posts: 1456
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:58 pm
- Location: Idyllwild, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
I'd suggest that the "cupping" (uneven wear, every few inches around the tire) is due to poor shocks; the wheel bounce between the air in the tire and the spring will cause cupping. Even good shocks, with a bad bushing, will allow enough play to cause cupping.I am seeing significant cupping on the outer 2" of the tire due to the stiff springs
That's almost exactly what my 712W weighed years ago when I actually weighed it; over 7k with me in it. Since then I'm guessing I've added an additional 1k with winch and bumper, steel exoskeleton, wide tires and rims, 43 gallon fuel tank, an additional set of batteries, etc. IIRC SoCal put in the "mid" rated 718 springs as the original springs were sagging. I, too, initially noticed the significant rebound and "bang" as the limit straps took tension. But over time, even these springs settled in and now the front tires wear much more evenly. I drive several to many thousands of miles each year (mostly on road) but I still haven't replaced the shocks yet -- maybe I'm just lucky....my truck weights 6,940 lbs empty. ...the springs are ...making the nose sit high
But as a stock unladden 712M weighs in at only ~5300 pounds (what does a 718M weigh?), you may be at half the capacity already. I'd suggest that you keep the springs you have but you might want to use a shorter pin (so the tires are more vertical and wear more evenly) and use a good heavy shock on the front (cupping is showing that you need new shocks, anyway) that should help to reduce the extension speed if suddenly there is no earth under the tires! You also might consider changing from the stock woven steel limit strap with a nylon one that cushions the end of travel; search as this has been discussed before.
Jim M.
712W and 710M
712W and 710M
- David Dunn
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Arcadia, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Jim,
As in my previous post, TD's do not have limiting straps. Downward travel of the axles are controlled by the diff and extension of the shock absorbers.
Shortening the pins will flatten the tires for more contact, but he needs to resolve the shocks first.
As in my previous post, TD's do not have limiting straps. Downward travel of the axles are controlled by the diff and extension of the shock absorbers.
Shortening the pins will flatten the tires for more contact, but he needs to resolve the shocks first.
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
David Dunn wrote:Jim,
As in my previous post, TD's do not have limiting straps. Downward travel of the axles are controlled by the diff and extension of the shock absorbers.
Shortening the pins will flatten the tires for more contact, but he needs to resolve the shocks first.
Any suggestions on locally sourced shocks? Also, with the weight know, is there any suggestions as to the correct springs I should be looking for? I definitely need to shorten the bottom pin so that the tires sit flatter. Attempting to add a photo of the stance and pin. The overload springs will be leaving soon, too.
- Attachments
-
- image.jpeg (1.66 MiB) Viewed 2618 times
- David Dunn
- Posts: 2274
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Arcadia, CA
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
I don't have any recommendation on shocks other than try to cross reference the originals.
As for the springs, you are mentioning "overload springs", and removing them too.
This now is beginning to sound like a "shotgun" method of repair.
Post clear photos of the wheel stations to see what you have.
Before cutting pins, lets see what you have, then get the suspension back to original. You may not need to do anything else since the truck is missing all the crap the military had overloaded it with. Either replace those tires or at least reverse them on the rims for the time being. Also measure the length of the pins and compare them to the sizes in the part manual.
Unfortunately, I gave up all my manuals when I sold my 716 and the only material I have now is specific to the UK modifications made to Pinzes.
Look at the picture in a holistic manner instead of looking at one thing and guessing that is the problem and compounding things down the road.
As for the springs, you are mentioning "overload springs", and removing them too.
This now is beginning to sound like a "shotgun" method of repair.
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
Post clear photos of the wheel stations to see what you have.
Before cutting pins, lets see what you have, then get the suspension back to original. You may not need to do anything else since the truck is missing all the crap the military had overloaded it with. Either replace those tires or at least reverse them on the rims for the time being. Also measure the length of the pins and compare them to the sizes in the part manual.
Unfortunately, I gave up all my manuals when I sold my 716 and the only material I have now is specific to the UK modifications made to Pinzes.
Look at the picture in a holistic manner instead of looking at one thing and guessing that is the problem and compounding things down the road.
.
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .
ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
Your answer is right here!NJ718 wrote:Just remove the inner helper spring that was added.
Take your inner spring out!!! Your not carrying half the weight that was carried on these truck with full kit. Removing the inner spring is like having the 2 stripe single springs. NJ718 did it to his and it made the ride so much softer and less jarring!
Re: 718 SOCOM front springs
David,
I get what you are saying. I intend to remove the helper springs because I do not believe I need that much capacity on a daily basis. I really don't know when I will ever haul that much weight up front, or in general.
I am STILL trying to upload a photo of the pin. As for the tires, they are directional so, at best, I can move them to the rear until I get this front pin/spring thing worked out so that the tires sit more flat and I don't just ruin a new set.
Thanks for the info so far, and I hope the photo finally uploads.
Phil,
![Image](http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/NM_Mogman/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpeg)
I get what you are saying. I intend to remove the helper springs because I do not believe I need that much capacity on a daily basis. I really don't know when I will ever haul that much weight up front, or in general.
I am STILL trying to upload a photo of the pin. As for the tires, they are directional so, at best, I can move them to the rear until I get this front pin/spring thing worked out so that the tires sit more flat and I don't just ruin a new set.
Thanks for the info so far, and I hope the photo finally uploads.
Phil,
![Image](http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/NM_Mogman/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpeg)