Video of final EFI Dyno lab test

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:20 am

Here is a short video we threw together of Monday's final dyno development of the EFI system. Here are some pics and the link below to the video.
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/gall ... /movie.gif

Kiwibru · Post by **Kiwibru** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:00 pm

Jake,
Technical difficulties, two different trials and different machines...

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McCall Pinz · Post by **McCall Pinz** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:01 pm

I couldn't get the videos to play. Anyway, the earlier comment about letting the engine breathe better has me very interested to see what you're coming up with. Better exhaust, Port and polished heads? hi ratio rockers?

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:05 pm

try this
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/pinzdyno/

This development is for bone stock engines, treated as a bolt on upgrade with no other alterations needed to attain optimum results.
For the sake of science we did test different mufflers, air intakes and etc with each variation of the EFI system's plenum and injector location as well as WITH THE STOCK CARBS.

What did we learn? Well if the Pinz has carbs, don't alter anything from bone stock, everything we did lost torque tremendously and HP as well with a more narrow power band. This included the K&N air filter and a magnaflow muffler and several dozen other combinations of bolt on enhancements.

Through this it came painfully clear over the course of the first three WEEKS of testing that the stock engine, without internal combination design alterations can;'t be improved on- especially with carbs.

Here is a copy of the technical portion of the tests I have been sharing on the Pinz EFI owners forum- it explains it all very clearly.

Here is the best power we achieved with the bone stock carbureted Pinz engine. It took 4 weeks and thousands of dollars, including a very specially configured plenum to beat these results with EFI, at that we only outperformed the carbs by 5.5HP and 6 LB FT of torque at peak with similar average numbers, power was flatter with more torque at extremely low RPM with the optimized EFI set up, most of the EFI tests we did showed a serious loss of power in every aspect.

Through this it is my hypothesis that most attempts to fuel inject a Pinz engine, made by those who are not well versed with EFI and haven't been tuning and using it for years will result in a loss of performance and drivability issues- especially if the plenum designed like the Red Bull arrangement is used.

--------------

After almost 4 solid weeks and 40 hours of actual engine test time the lab portion of the Pinzgauer EFI system is completed. Over this period of time we gathered dozens of comparative plots from a bone stock carbureted engine as well as 3 different injector positions and two different intake plenum designs.

So... What have we learned?? Well it took us over 3 solid weeks to attain even ONE dyno graph that superseded the overall engine output that we recorded with the bone stock carbureted Pinzgauer engine- Even using modern technology and a team of engine specialists that are wel versed with manipulating aircooled engines.

During these tests we learned that simple changes that typically make huge power increases on other aircooled engines simply are not effective means of Pinzgauer engine manipulation, this was not expected and it caused serious challenges during the development. These challenges and the difficulty that we experienced in actually making more TQ and HP during the testing proves just how specific the Pinz engine was developed to work as a given unit, with every part remaining as the factory created it, even an air filter change KILLED the tq and hurt HP as well, just like removing the filter did or swapping mufflers- the Pinz engine is one well oiled machine that operates it's best with stock settings and components.

The EFI kit:
It became very clear on the 3rd day of lab testing that the destiny of the development I have been working on for two years off and on would be in question. This is because I require many things to be present with any development that gets my pedigree and these things were not evident with the first tests. I consulted with my staff and decided to go forward with our testing outline even though it may prove to be a total waste of lab time, thats because I had individuals commited to the kits and I owed these people and the development my time to try every conceivable combination with before throwing in the towel.

Some notable portions of the testing:

The first 3 weeks were filled with tests using existing EFI plenums and other injector locations with them. None of these tests were found to be anywhere close to the stock power, even when tested with different exhaust and air filters as well as timing manipulation.

The first injector position was down low in the manifolds, this position offered fair torque but a limited RPM range that was worse then the carbs. This is the most dangerous location for the injectors as they are inside the fanshroud and they also disrupt cooling air within the fan shroud and tins, on top of that they are the most difficult to install and service later requiring disassembly to get to any fuel hoses or injectors. here is the pic of the low injector position

The second location was up top, in the plenum. The plenum used for this is the same unit used on the Red Bull trucks, made by the same person and using the same throttle body.

This position proved to be horrible as we lost both torque and HP and the engine definately usd more fuel and achieved higher temperatures faster than with carbs or the lower injector position. The most notable portion of this position was the HUGE flat spot in acceleration that was absolutely unable to be removed despite accel trim, raised fuel pressure or manipulated timing. It was apparent that the Red Bull plenum had inherent design problems because our exhaust gas temps raised on cylinders 2&3 and dropped on cylinders 1&4 from all the other tests, indicating mixture quality issues on the outboard cylinders- Not even carburetors had this much EGT variance before I tuned them!

The results of these tests were so disappointing that I was ready to pull the engine off the dyno and give up- But I have never done that before and certainly wasn't going to now!

After testing this plenum and injector position I can now see why the Red Bull trucks have issues, I can solve those with a Plenum swap because it worked for us!

RAT plenum design one V2:

I don't believe in sharp corners inside plenums, so I never favored the Red Bull plenum, I also didn't fancy it's volume as it was certainly too small and the injectors spraying into the plenum was certainly making for some improperly mixed intake charges.

My way of curing this was to place the injector at the parting line of the intake runner and intake manifold, just below the plenum. At this point my hypothesis was this position would stabilize EGT through better mixture quality of having the injector in the port and it would also make the injector much easier to service and inspect for leaks/etc. This location was by far the most strategically placed for fitting into the truck as well.

We added plenum volume and treated this portion of the development like the Pinz engines was one of our typical aircooled engines. We increased the displacement of the plenum to 2.2L which is 88% of the engine's total displacement (typically 90% is the desired plenum/displacement ratio) in hopes that this would leave enough plenum charge to make the engine run smoother, idle better and through both of these we'd make more power everywhere and increase down low, just off idle torque.

The result was a first dyno run that was better than all the other EFI tests to that point, but still did NOT beat the stock carbureted engine. What we did note was cooler running and MUCH, MUCH SMOOTHER running with even a few mechanical sounds removed that had been present the entire time. We worked to smoth out the fuel numbers in the ECU because now the engine wanted a bit leaner charge, indicating much more efficiency than it had with the upper injector location and the power started to come up and the engine began to scream! In the controls I could feel the difference and the trained ear could tell that the engine was pulling much faster thrugh the RPM range. The engine's smoothness is partially attributed to better, more stable air flow within the plenum as well as absolutely stable fuel delivery and pressure created by our "Fuel distributor" that was addeed when we swapped to the final plenum.

Later that day we finally broke the power of the bone stock carbureted engine and continued until we made enough power to successfully seperate our power plots from the comparative graphs generated by the computer for the stock engine, but unfortunately we did not pick up the percentage of power that we were looking for, or the amount that I mandated to call this a true accomplishment so I shut the dyno down and went home.

This past Monday I came in the lab with an understanding that the results from that day's optimizing would determine the future of the kit and after 27 back to back dyno runs with altered timing, altered fuel curves and even an updated microprocessor chip install I wasn't able to equal the 88HP I had achieved on Friday, nor was I able to improve upon the torque. I did make the engine run smoother and consume less fuel with some better fuel values in the mid range, but other than that it was another wasted day.

Here are some answers to some FAQ.

- The EFI system has proven to make only minimal HP and torque power differences when in top tune compared to a bone stock carbureted 2.5L engine.

- The EFI arrangement provides a very stable (stock) idle at 800-1,000 RPM

- The fuel smell associated with carburetors is eliminated.

- The engine runs much smoother, engine harmonics and vibrations are greatly reduced. I feel this is a benefit of the latest plenum design and fuel delivery system and it's ability to provide stable fuel pressure to each injector as well as air flow that isn't disrupted due to inefficient plenum design (as noted with the Red Bull plenum).

-dual carburetor synchronization, tuning and associated issues are eliminated.

- Engine temperatures are decreased overall

- A definite reduction in fuel consumption was noted, especially with the latest plenum and injector position.

- Will the system need tuning when received? YES despite outrageous effort we have made to tune the systems beforehand tuning will be required, but on a minimal level.

- Can I expect my Pinz to drive and behave like a 2008 Hummer? NO, programming will still be necessary, but all the hard work is completed.

- Will the system make for altitude compensation? YES, but higher elevations will still need to be tuned initially. After the majority of elevations and manifold pressure values have been tuned further tweeking is not typically necessary.

While this system is the simplest available to tune, install and work with it doesn't posess magical characteristics that will be perfect right out of the box, unless you are located in my back yard where all the tuning and testing has been done.

In summary:
I am disappointed, both as an enthusiast and an engine and component developer. I am not happy at all about the amount of time, effort and money that was invested in this development for a measley 3-4HP gain and only 5 lb/ft of torque over the bone stock craburetors. Sure we made a gain, but is that gain really worth 2500+ bucks and all the time to install the system in the truck and go through the EFI learning curves? As an enthusiast I don't believe so and that further disappoints me.

The original target price for this kit was retail at 2,500.00, unfotunately at the time I made this pricing schedule I had no idea that the very simple plenum would not work well nor did I expect to spend as much time in the lab to get the system optimized, moreover I did not expect to achieve such poor numbers from the engine. In the beginning I told myself that if I couldn't achieve 95 HP/ 140 TQ with EFI that I would not consider the development a success.

My time in the lab is very valuable, with the level of experience, tools and data logging that we have what we have done here over the past month would have cost anyone else 1,000.00 per day (thats my going rate for development work for other companies) so this further disappoints me.

As it stands now I know that we are going to have some disappointed customers, both with the results of the testing and with the fact that I really don't know what to do to complete this project, but rest assured that no one is as disappointed as me, because I am not accustomed to failure and this is the first time it has happened with a development that has so much time and effort invested at my company. Had I been like everyone else and simply made the engine run and attained a partial fuel map boxed it up and sold it none of the things we have noted would have occured, it has been my goal from day one to thoroughly develop and understand any part that leaves my facility. This makes for great components with support to back them up and that is priceless in today's world.

So, the facts are the plenum that actually works is expensive to make, it took me 8 solid hours of welding to complete and the few amount of units that are going to be sold won't be enough to substantiate mass production that could make for more cost effective components.

I'll close by saying that had I been an enthusiast that was just here to observe the tests from start to finish from carbs to EFI, having no vested interest in the outcome that I would not spend the money or take the time to outfit the system and work through the EFI learning curve for the benefits.

Find that bold honesty with any other retailer in today's world. (especially a retailer that developed the system and has thousands of dollars in the testing of 40,000.00+ worth of "pre sold" kits)

Unless you are like me and willing to change most every internal aspect of the Pinz engine to make it something it was never meant to be, leave it bone stock and I'll guarantee you'll get exactly what the Austrians promised you. (take that from a guy that does nothing except develop engine combinations and components and thoroughly tests them daily)

Typically I consider stock evil, but it's gonna take all my voodoo to beat these Austrian's at their own game- maybe 3.3L, CNC porting and my camshaft design will spank their asses!

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:11 pm

Jake, you will find that the EFI works better when you increase compression to 8.5:1 and change the duration on the cam. I am finally putting my 8.5:1 2.66L engine together(I like thick cylinder walls).
Interesting fuel plumbing on your set-up, are the regulator and fuel return also mounted on your distribution block?
It is good that you raised the injectors as they tend to melt in that location out here in the west

I have guides to better control the injector spray in my set-up.

Some of the Red Bull trucks also had issues with the accellerator cable set-up using that smaller ford throttle body, but it does have an IAC and mine (if desired) must be added in due to the 60mm throttle body.
I will get it back on the dyno after the new engine gets completed.
Can't wait to see more EFI Pinzgauers out there

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:28 pm

Jim, Are you using the same cam as the 2.7 or have you come up with a better one for the 2.66. I thought the were burning up pistons not cylinders?Have you tried the nickels cylinders?

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:57 pm

I have my own cam grinds, will be trying out a +HP cam in this engine. As for burning up pistons, that usually occours when you run too lean(loose carbs)at hwy speeds for a long distance, has nothing to do with a cam.
I will never try the Nickle cylinders due to cost and modifications to the block(I will never destroy a good engine case or cylinder head). Any mods I do are reversable to preserve the value of the truck. Not everyone values a modified truck

I went with EFI because my son has asthma and it greatly improved breathing air quality in the truck . So for me this was well worth the $

Pinz Enthusiast · Post by **Pinz Enthusiast** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:38 pm

Jim,

Your the man where others fail you always seem to come thru with a workable and affordable alternative, keep up the good work and by the way if it's not too much more maybe we can do the 2.66 on my truck too.

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:17 pm

If you look back at my earliest posts you'll see that as soon as I ran the stock cam through my cam profiler I knew we'd be up for a challenge based on my EFI cam development experience.

Trust me, I will conquer this engine, and I will make more usable power than anyone else ever has with a reliable Pinz engine because every aspect of the engine is being revitalized.

This development is different- we were working with a HUGE constraint and that was making a bolt on kit that worked well with no cam swaps needed and no other components needing to be swapped internally. At the same time the system needed to be able to conform to the further internal developments I am crete with just a throttle body swap.

I am accustomed to starting with a blank sheet of paper doing developments and that is much easier than having to conform to components that can't be changed.

My fuel distributor incorporates both the supply and return lines as well as the pressure regulator mounting directly to it.This component that is totally outside the norm made thje biggest difference in engine smoothness and performance than anything we did.The necessity of fuel pressure stability is often over looked by tuners working with EFI.

FYI- our Nikisil cylinders have a drop in 96mm option that DROPS IN the OEM non modified case. All other sizes require machining. As for comprpmising a case to use these, well the cylinders have a lifetime warranty and 911 customers have put 45 PSI boost through their cylinders that are not as beefy as the Pinz versions.911 engines also go 200K miles using this technologyn once these are installed wear, temps and piston failures are history. My 96mm set runs less than one thousandth of skirt clearance and I have ran as little as .00075 with excellent results.

With this development almost behind me its time to go crazy. Wait till you see what I have up my sleeve- I will conquer this monster.

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:57 pm

I will conquer this monster.

I have no doubt you will , and look forward to wheeling with other injected trucks.
Has Herbert got his Mega Squirt running yet? I like the hand tuner feature you are using, I went total overkill on my computer

Are you able to sell the computer and blank harness seperate?
If so do you have an estimated cost? There are 8 Red bull trucks running the Steve Draggus Manifold and Motec computer systems and there are 4 trucks running the Beck manifold that I use, 1 is running a Haltech unit with a VW MSD distributer and spark controller, 1 running an EMS Stinger 4, and 2 running the EMS8860. They are all fine units, but the price varies greatly between them, and they all have good features.
There are also a couple of trucks running custom dual throttle bodies in various configs.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:18 am

I guess I can understand why you would be dissappointed with the time and effort you expended in the project, but,

The EFI system has proven to make only minimal HP and torque power differences when in top tune compared to a bone stock carbureted 2.5L engine.

- The EFI arrangement provides a very stable (stock) idle at 800-1,000 RPM

- The fuel smell associated with carburetors is eliminated.

- The engine runs much smoother, engine harmonics and vibrations are greatly reduced. I feel this is a benefit of the latest plenum design and fuel delivery system and it's ability to provide stable fuel pressure to each injector as well as air flow that isn't disrupted due to inefficient plenum design (as noted with the Red Bull plenum).

-dual carburetor synchronization, tuning and associated issues are eliminated.

- Engine temperatures are decreased overall

- A definite reduction in fuel consumption was noted, especially with the latest plenum and injector position.

These reasons would be plenty enough for me to still be interested in EFI.

I guess this speaks to how well engineered these engines are, especially for when they were designed,

gunnar · Post by **gunnar** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:54 am

Hi,

I am a bit confused now.
Is the EFI kit available now, or has it been dropped?
The positive aspects of the kit are worth the bucks for me!

regards
gunnar (Salzburg, Austria)

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:39 am

Jim. I was just tring to fiqure out why you were just going to do the 2.66 and not the 2.7. for some reason i thought they were burning up pistons? didn't try and make anyone mad. can you please explain.

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:29 am

Erik, The bigger the bore, the less sealing surface at the top of the cylinder to the head and forged pistons require more wall clearance as they expand more than autothermic(cast)pistons.

M Wehrman · Post by **M Wehrman** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:34 am

Got a fresh beverage and I'm on a roll...

Is there any reason to not entertain the Holley 2bbl speed density system? Fabbing a manifold assy would be no big deal and the system price is right (under $1000 in Jegs).
I know this would be a store bought item with some fabrication......

Mark