EFI Kit Nearing Completion

[EuroTruck]

We now have commitments on 5 kits. Come on guys, we're 1/3 of the way there!

Vince, did you say GF?

-Sean P.

[Charles]

Hi Guys,
Like I said in a previous post, I think the EFI kit is a great idea, glad you guys did it. I think the cost is great too (for the "production" run) as well (probably cheap in fact).

My hangup is the install. I don't have a ton of time to do it myself, and I sure as heck don't wanna F up my Pinz due to my ineptitude. I use my Pinz for working and hunting, but I'm sure as shoot not a crackerjack engine jockey... I guess my point is that your market is not narrow only because it's a Pinz component, but rather because it's a Pinz component for the DIY Pinz crowd (they are somewhat the same, but not identical)...

Anyhoo, if there is anybody out there who can farm-out some install time to me let me know, or if you could help me out with finding somebody you trust in this neck o' the woods, I think that would help a ton!

Good luck with the whole thing, and if you give the guys on this board a little time to come up with the scratch and/or muster up their courage (many probably are not engine-techs either) I think you will do just fine.

PS: I don't know if Dennis has weighed in on this, but I think he's got a pretty good crowd of Pinz customers... Ever consider hitting him up on some kits for his guys? If I lived in CO, I'd have Dennis do mine for me.

HEY DENNIS: Wanna come up to Minnesota to do some Pinzstalls and some Ice Fishing?? You could drag the wife and kids up to the "Maul" of America if you wanted too!

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

Well, maybe something could be in the works. Statistically it's just bound to occur again, even for the marginally socially contempt type.

Vince, did you say GF?

-Sean P.

You know one or two of the other Pinz dealers out there should throw in a few orders to ETI. Get a small discount for ordering more than one, then price it up a little with installation. There sure are a lot of trucks out west...

Vince

[lindenengineering]

Charles
I have just logged into this forum as curiosity as I have been too busy to take much interest as late.

Yes I think the EFI conversion is a good idea, PROVIDING its been fully developed. I have been tempted to do a skit on some poor devil and his EFI Pinz with a GPS/laptop with glitch capture hanging from his belt together with his cell phone going to Moab just in case he needs to "re-map' the management system. Remember our experiences with a certain rendition of EFI on a Pinz cannot be recorded as stellar.

Seriously though.
I think its a great idea to do some installs, certainly from my perspective the price is right, in fact should I dare state it's a tad on the inexpensive side based upon my calculations and development costs plus something for beer money. So my advise would be for those tempted to buy this system and currently have a pair of worn out carburetors on their truck that are only fit for the trash can I would say GO FOR IT! I doubt it will remain so competitive on pricing forever.

I would be prepared to install the first system for someone at base labour cost and demo it for anyone tempted but "cannot be convinced". Procrastinator in other words!

I don't know about coming over to your part of the world Charles but I would be happy to install it for you and do the emissions testing/shake down in scenic Colorado.
Best regards
Dennis

[Jim LaGuardia]

I am also willing/able to install these kits for those perspective buyers in my area
It is so nice to be free of the gas smell in the cab from the carbs
I tend to agree with Denis, the price is very good .
Let's see some more EFI Pinzgauers out there

[milesdzyn]

Dennis.....That’s sacrilege

currently have a pair of worn out carburetors on their truck that are only fit for the trash can

You know how bloody hard it is to find a pair of 36's, even if they need a rebuild there are still some guys that could use a spare pair. Me…I already have a second set as backup, but damn the trash can, that’s just harsh.

Damn Porsche guys.

Miles

[Profpinz]

currently have a pair of worn out carburetors on their truck that are only fit for the trash can

Nothing is ever that worn out .... You chemically clean all the castings, surface-grind and fly cut the mating faces, helicoil the threads, bore the shaft to accept bushes and aftermarket seals, weld and machine all the worn linkages etc, fully rebuild everything else, insert all new O rings, gaskets etc and "WALLAH" .....you have a set of new carbies

[MASSIVE PINZ]

We now have commitments on 5 kits. Come on guys, we're 1/3 of the way there!

Vince, did you say GF?

-Sean P.

Hmmn, that sounds VERy good. I am glad to see people starting to come around a bit and realize what this really is.

Yes I think the EFI conversion is a good idea, PROVIDING its been fully developed. I have been tempted to do a skit on some poor devil and his EFI Pinz with a GPS/laptop with glitch capture hanging from his belt together with his cell phone going to Moab just in case he needs to "re-map' the management system. Remember our experiences with a certain rendition of EFI on a Pinz cannot be recorded as stellar.

Dennis, let me address this portion of your post:
I could have been "Finished" with this development 9+ months ago. All it took was 6 weeks to get through the initial fitment crap and get the engine running with EFI. Now it has been eleven months and 13,500 miles since I began this project and it has seen 7 total revisions with 5 different injector locations, at least 4 different sized injectors and 6 different plenum volumes- I'd say its about as developed at this point as it can get based on the Volumetric efficiency tables I have created based on the fuel values from the engine that are now about 25% better than my first initial run was.

Keep in mind that I have used this system on the engines I primarily work with for 5 years now and for the last two years it has basically been the only means of fuel delivery that I have utilized for these engines, so far in 2006 I have built two carbureted engines and 18 EFI engines.

Most of my customers for these engines are not mechanics- thats why they come to me. I chose the system that I work with after experience with the same engine and 5 different EFI set ups, all of which were too complicated, needed software and a laptop to tune and had parameters and bells/whistles that were far from even being needed, their effectiveness sucked for the extra money. I chose to go with the system that I work with because of all the facts, it was within 2% power wise from a system that cost twice as much, it did NOT need a laptop and did NOT require computer skills to operate. The other systems require you to be all knowing with the software before you can even tune the engine...

All of this experience with this system has really helped me to utilize and tune it and offer that assistance to those completing engine installs. We have become proficient with the system now that most of my engines can be dyno tuned here through the entire RPM range and only need deceleration values altered when the customer fires the engine up for the first time. That simplicity and effectiveness is what is soimportant, else the system is only as good as a set of carbs! This system has pleased every one of my engine customers, its not easy to satisfy a guy that has comprehension of an engine that cost him a minimum of 15K- with carbs I received gripes on a daily basis, thats why we swapped and won't go back.

The reason I wanted to offer this EFI system for the Pinz is because it seemed like the missing link for the engine. I already had experience, every fab tool needed and the experience with EFI system design that gave me an edge to make this a more successful experience than others have had.

Right away I noted some deficiencies with the systems that I saw pictures of and a couple of trucks I was able to see in North Carolina that had EFI installed as well. It seems that injector placing is the big difference that separates the men from the boys as I have seen huge VE changes, throttle response and fuel economy changes when moving the injector as little as 1"- moving it 6 inches required a total RE-Map of the system, thats how much effect it had!

This is not something I see with my engines in general, it was particular only to the Pinz. I also found that an alternate MAp sensor was needed from the default GM unit that we generally use, this is due to the funky vacuum signal of the Pinz thats created by the very close lobe centerlines on the camshaft, this was a hurdlle that was very hard to overcome because it effected idle speed and quality as well as off idle transition and low end power the most, thats right where the Pinz needs its grunt. It took me about 6 weeks to overcome this issue alone.

Seriously though.
I think its a great idea to do some installs, certainly from my perspective the price is right, in fact should I dare state it's a tad on the inexpensive side based upon my calculations and development costs plus something for beer money. So my advise would be for those tempted to buy this system and currently have a pair of worn out carburetors on their truck that are only fit for the trash can I would say GO FOR IT! I doubt it will remain so competitive on pricing forever

I am glad to see that you feel the price is right. At this price none of my development costs are taken into account. I have written them off because if they were considered this system would be double the price undoubtedly. I was able to provide a system for my truck that will enable me to feed the engine clear up to 3.3L for my stroker project with only an injector size and plenum volume change so thats all I really need.

I will state that this is the INTRODUCTORY price for the kits, I would not think that the next batch of systems will be the same cost.

I am glad to see that some of the more proficient people on the board are willing to do installs. I am sure it would be simple for you guys, but I really want to see how the DIY guys fair at installing the system

[ExpeditionImports]

I stepped up...put my money where my mouth is. Sean has my order for multiple units.

I am 100% supportive of the project, the development, and the price.

Something to keep in mind is the following: The kit is being marketed DIRECT to the general population. Exactly as I would expect on a low quantity highly technical product such as this. I would assume this also plays into the lower pricing, as setting this product up for the standard "distribution" with wholesale pricing would invariably raise the end user price. However, for a dealer it is also a catch 22. No matter how great the product is, it is not common for a dealer to inventory a $2500-3000 kit that the dealer makes no money on other than installation labor. Business 101 here. On top of that, the dealer that does the installation is going to "be on the hook" to their customer for questions/problems/tech/warranty if anything is to arise. Any high volume shop will tell you it is these questions/problems/warranties that are "no pay" time consumers. The markup of a part, helps to cover these added costs.

I'm not suggesting this should be any other way, but it might explain why a dealer is not willing to sign up for 6-10 kits at a time, and why it may be difficult to find a lot of dealers inventorying the product.

In addition....the Pinzgauer Community (In General, don't get your panties in a knot here, numerous exceptions to the rule.) is notoriously cheap.....as in many cannot afford to maintain/repair the pinz they are driving. Overall excitement for the development, does not neccesarily equate to them having the financial means to take advantage to the benefits of the kit.

All food for thought.

Cheers,

Scott







You know one or two of the other Pinz dealers out there should throw in a few orders to ETI. Get a small discount for ordering more than one, then price it up a little with installation. There sure are a lot of trucks out west...

Vince[/quote]

[MASSIVE PINZ]

Thanks for the input and for your orders. i am sure they will help make this a reality.

I tend to stay away from dealers for my products because they end up being middle men that can impede communication and complicate things unless they totally understand the product.

The only dealer I will be working with on this project is Sean, this goes back to a handshake he and I made when he GAVE me a test engine to work with to develop this arrangement and my Pinzgauer aluminum cylinders. I then agreed that anything I created would go through him, its only fair as we are local, think the same and talk the same and he helped me make this happen..

So he can deal with any "dealer" that he wants to move the systems. Support will ultimately come from me and each system will come with a limited amount of that support in the price, additional support can be purchased if needed at a nominal consulting fee.

The systems will ship from here with no warranty, these are electrical devices that can have one wire hooked up backward and be fried. even with my experience I still fry something from time to time and thats just the way the ball bounces. If dealers or Sean wish to make warranties they will be responsible for the repairs themselves.

I will say that the manufacturer that produces the ECUs and harnasses for this set up are very easy to work with and will repair your unit vice trying to sell you a new one if something does go south.

This is finally looking up, thanks to the guys who made the dposits and believe in what I have created. Your Pinz will thank you, your buddies will envy you

[michaelh712]

Jake,
I'm delighted to see that this is coming together. I'm poised with wallet in hand, but have several unanswered questions related to my geographic location i'd like help with first.
1. It's cold, sometimes very cold here in Utah. When/may the tests you eluded to earlier be conducted and what are you "expecting."
2. It's high here; I live at 5,500 feet and that's only the city, not the mountain elevation. What would this mean in terms of tweaking the system?
3. I see a larger displacement in my future, perhaps your jugs and pistons. What would this mean if I installed the efi now then modified the cc's in the future.
4. We do have emissions testing here. My 712 has always passed, so I can assume that it would do as well or better with efi?
Thanks, in advance,
Michael

[MASSIVE PINZ]

Jake,
I'm delighted to see that this is coming together. I'm poised with wallet in hand, but have several unanswered questions related to my geographic location i'd like help with first.

Sure.... No problem

1. It's cold, sometimes very cold here in Utah. When/may the tests you eluded to earlier be conducted and what are you "expecting."

I have customers of mine with this same system on my VW/Porsche engines in Utah- no sweat. I have been using this system for a long time and have engines running it on 6 different continents.
My testing will be done here in December and January about as cold as it gets here is in the low teens so I can test it doown that far and pre set values for cold start o that level.

Its not a big deal that I can't test it lower than that and provide values, its as simple as turning the key on which arms the ECU, then grabbing the programmer, looking at the temperature of the air inlet temp sensor, its right on the main display. Let's say that the temperature is -5F, you go to that value and then try to start the Pinz, if it doesn't want to fire up you grab the enrichment knob and turn it clockwise, thus richening the engine progressively.

When the engine does fire go ahead and shut it off, then look at the programmer to see how much of a percentage of "Rich" you had to turn the knob to achieve start up. Lets say you needed 10% more fuel to start the engine based on the 10% richer position of the knob, this is displayed right in front of you in percentages.

Then take the fuel value at -5F and up it 10% and you have just set that start value, this can be done at any temp down to -50F or up to 150F. What this basically comes down to is a really sweet super adjustable choke that can be set up in just a few minutes.

As stated, I have these systems running in many climates, my customers span the world. Yes, this does take getting used to but once you learn the basics it is simple and fun to do.

2. It's high here; I live at 5,500 feet and that's only the city, not the mountain elevation. What would this mean in terms of tweaking the system?

tweaking not necessary. The system uses a MAP signal from the engine (Manifold Absolute Pressure) to compensate for enrichment. This means that it knows the density of the air in the manifold and it compensates enrichment for this, just like a new car. It is NOT as fast as a new car, if rapidly accelerating up the side of a 5000 foot grade it'll take 3-5 minutes for full compensation, but this is harly notable.
this is the beauty of EFI, no jets needed and no rich running.

Some of you at altitudes higher than 6500 can expect to need some tuning at MP levels that I cannot attain here due to my limitation 6500 elevations to test at. This is simple and is handled like the cold start arrangement- once you set it once its done for good...

3. I see a larger displacement in my future, perhaps your jugs and pistons. What would this mean if I installed the efi now then modified the cc's in the future.

The Plenum I currently have as the final prototype is designed to feed engines up to 2.7 Liters. I made it for the 2.5 engine but all the math supports the fact that it will feed a 2.8L engine to 5000 RPM. I do have a design for a larger plenum and I'll be using that one on my 3.3L beast next year...

Hope that clears up the questions.....

4. We do have emissions testing here. My 712 has always passed, so I can assume that it would do as well or better with efi?
Thanks, in advance

Carbs run dirty and they are hard to dial in correctly. as i stated yesterday any engine that passes with carbs should certainly pass with EFI because emissions are directly related to efficiency and a better, more atomized fuel mixture is more efficient...
If you don't pass you can go home and tweak the programmer and run back for another test. The system also controls ignition timing as well, so no more need for a timing light! If the engine runs dirty you can add some advance at the dirty levels and trick the engine into passing...

If a Pinz can't be made to pass smog with this set up its only because the driver hasn't mastered the manipulation of the ECU yet....

[Profpinz]

It will be very interesting to get some feedback on these kits from customers in the longterm including hopefully tech specs, dyno figures etc.

To be honest (after reading all the posts etc), if I wasn't playing around with my own design I'd seriously think about buying a kit myself..... but then I'd lose out on all those joyful hours making those casting patterns and honing my TIG skills etc.

Good luck guys and I look forward to reading about all those FI Pinzgauers.

[Colorado Ron]

Well Ill deffinatly be testing it. I plan to use this setup on my Round the World trip in 08. That should be enough testing!LOL

[Mr. Magoo]

Sean,

I left a message at your business with my info for the deposit on the EFI system. Don't want this to go down the tubes! You have my email address and phone# if you need anything more.