SOS WI DOT Cancels ALL Pinz Titles!

Jimm391730 · Post by **Jimm391730** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:44 pm

It's probably not prudent to comment publicly on details at this point.

I hope you keep track of the process and post the details when appropriate! The more the rest of us "non-Wisconsonites" know and understand about the process you've been through the better we will be able to deal with our own trials and tribulations with registration, insurance, etc. in our own states.

Not to mention draw of the raw saga...

Thanks and best of luck,

Jim M.
172W and 710M in California

Jerbearyukon · Post by **Jerbearyukon** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:34 am

Noth'in against Florida Paul but I thought we had a deal

- YUKON...remember.....If you couldn't make it work you were splitting and bringing the fam to the YUKON......

oops maybe it was just MY DREAM

You abd the fam are always welcome here - hey our dollar doesn't even look half bad anymore

Jer Bear

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:56 pm

Hi Guys,

Jim, I'm doing my best to keep track of things, but it's getting challenging. I've got over 300 email (incoming only) related to this issue. I'm on my 5th 3-ring binder of documents, etc. I've been so busy with this, I can't tell you.

I can tell you that I have received a letter from US DOT - NHTSA stating that MY truck, VIN # etc., IS LEGAL AND FEDERALLY EXEMPTED FROM FMVSS REQUIREMENTS. Which is nice.

But, on top of not wanting to let the 'cat out of the bag', legally, I'd be hard pressed to find the time to keep updates posted.

I understand why people usually just hire an attorney. And why that usually costs so much to do...

What's occurred to me is that when (yeah, ok, IF) I prevail, it might be useful to reconfigure our website to be a repository of Pinzgauer-related legal information. That way, all my work won't just sit around forever, and if any of the rest of you are getting screwed with, the way WisDOT is doing to us, you can easily get the information I've found. We'll see.

At any rate, the hearing is July 14. I'll write more after that date.

Jerry,

Don't worry, the Yukon is still on the list. Florida's off. I could never survive the heat down south. I can't tolerate high temps due to my neck injury. Once I'm naked, the fights over, and I lose.

Snow and cold, on the other hand, bring 'em on!

Don't even mention the US Dollar. Ouch!!

I hope all is well.

Paul

russ · Post by **russ** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:59 pm

It's WHEN you prevail

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:19 am

Hi All,

Monday, I met with another Wisconsin citizen who dealt with the WisDOT in 2003 over the importation of an antique Leyland Mini from Canada. WisDOT/DMV cited the same interpretation of the same satute in refusing to register his vehicle, ignoring the federal exemption for over-25-yr old imports.

He filed an appeal, and was scheduled before the same Administrative Law Judge as my case. His appeal was settled prior to a hearing, and his Mini was registered.

He provided me with documentation of the case, and is willing to meet with our elected officials, if they are willing to listen. Sadly, none are, so far. WisDOT seems intent on continuing this inquisition against Wisconsin citizens.

Yesterday, July 1, I filed my evidence (listed below) and witness list with the WisDOT and the Wisconsin Dept. of Administration, Division of Hearings and Appeals.

I did not receive the evidence nor witness list from WisDOT, as required.

I am inquiring with DOA about the process of subpoenaing the necessary WisDOT personel. The witnesses on my side have all voluntarily agreed to appear.

I did not receive the promised report from Dennis and Per. I do not know what happened there. It will not be allowed as evidence, as it did not make the deadline. Unfortunate. But if/when I receive it, it may come in handy for someone else, if/when some other state's DMV runs amok.

Here, for your reading enjoyment, is my evidence list. The Wisconsin regulations are obviously pertinent to only my state. But the federal documents and laws are yours too. Bon appetit.

Paul

Book 1
DOA HEARING LIST OF DOCUMENTS & EVIDENCE

Highway Safety Act of 1966

Highway Safety Act of 1966 (23 USC Chapter 4)

State and Federal Laws

Wisconsin Statutes
Wisconsin Statute s. 227.10(3)(c)
Wisconsin Statute s. 227.40(4)(a)
Wisconsin Statute s. 340.01(4)
Wisconsin Statute s. 340.01(25j) & s. 340.01(25j)(a)
Wisconsin Statute s. 341.10(6).
Wisconsin Statute s. 342.10(3)(c)
Wisconsin Statute s. 342.16(2)

Wisconsin Administrative Code - Department of Transportation
Chapter Trans 305 Subchapter I Trans 305.065
Chapter Trans 305 Subchapter I Trans 305.56

U.S. Constitution
Article IV, Section 1

U.S. Codes
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30102
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30111
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30112
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30117
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30141
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30502
Title 49 Transportation Subtitle VI Part A Chapter 301 Section 30503

Code of Federal Regulations
Code of Federal Regulations Vol. 5, Chapter V, Part 571, Sec. 571.7
Code of Federal Regulations Vol. 6, Chapter V, Subtitle B, Part 591.5

Book 2
DOA HEARING LIST OF DOCUMENTS & EVIDENCE

Publications

Automobile Revue - Reprint from Swiss Army publication 25-1971
Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer operating instructions (selected pages)
Pinzgauer Of America sales brochure, circa 1979
Four Wheeler magazine article "Puch-Pinzgauer" August 1978
Car and Driver magazine article "Pinzgauer!" July 1978
Military Vehicles Magazine advertisement October 2007
Cold War Remarketing website printout (06/25/2008) www.coldwarremarketing.com
Wisconsin State Journal article "State law may take historic military vehicles off the road" Nov. 2007
AM General Company History Source: www.amgeneral.com
AM General Company Profile Source: www.amgeneral.com
New York Times article "Collision Odds Turn Lopsided As Sales of Big Vehicles Boom" March 1997
Lincoln Navigator Capacities Source: www.lincoln.com/navigator
Chevy Suburban Capacities Source: www.chevrolet.com/suburban
Hummer H2 Sales Brochure (Pgs. 1 & 6) Source: www.hummer.com
Ford Excursion Capacities Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Excursion
Hummer H1 Dimensions Source: www.edmunds.com/used/2004/hummer/h1

Regulatory Agency Documents

U.S. DOT - NHTSA
NHTSA List of Nonconforming motor vehicles that are eligible for importation.
NHTSA letter of interpretation d:12/14/90 by Chief Counsel Paul Jackson Rice to Roger Fairchild
NHTSA letter of interpretation d:12/3/04 by Chief Counsel Jacqueline Glassman to Ms. Kelly
NHTSA letter of interpretation d:5/17/93 by Chief Counsel Jonh Womack to St. F. Steiner
NHTSA letter of interpretation d:5/19/00 by Chief Counsel Frank Seales, Jr. to Louis De Cuzzi
NHTSA letter of interpretation d:11/26/03 by Chief Counsel Jacqueline Glassman to Amir Ambar

U.S. DOT
U.S. DOT form HS-7.

U.S. EPA
U.S. EPA form 3520-1

Wisconsin DOT
Original Title (#92350A4016-1) issued 12/23/92 to Stauffer Classics.
WisDOT/DMV Certificate of Vehicle Registration issued to Stauffer Classics.
(Exp.) dates: 11/94, 11/94, 11/00 ('00 is license sticker)
Original Title (#30030775001-0) issued 11/02/2000 to Thomas Landmann.
WisDOT/DMV Certificate of Vehicle Registration issued to Thomas Landmann,
(Exp.) dates: 10/01, 10/03, 10/04, 10/05, 10/06, 10/08
Original Title (#02171A4019-7) issued 6/27/2002.
Original Title (#02196J2010-7) issued 7/22/02.
Original Title (#02196J2013-4) issued 7/22/02.
Original Title (#02196J2014-3) issued 7/22/02.
Original Title (#0429400012-1) issued 10/21/2004.
Original Title (#04385J40096) issued 12/23/04 to Dr. Andrew Shuler
WisDOT/DMV Certificate of Vehicle Registration issued to Dr. Andrew Shuler
(Exp.) date: 11/08
Original Title (#05097Q60248-) issued 4/7/05 to Scott Grewe
Corrected Title (#072680568017-0) issued 9/25/07 to Thomas Landmann with brandings.
Corrected Title (#072680568012-9) issued 9/25/07 with brandings.
State of Wisconsin Vehicle Inspection Report #7820479 dated April 9, 2005
WisDOT/DMV Memo BVS-06-10 Signed by: Anna Biermeier & Paul Bernander, dated Dec. 19, 2006
WisDOT Memo DT1175 97 Author: Paul Nilsen, dated Feb. 4, 2008
WisDOT Statement of Scope of Proposed Rulemaking, Trans 123, dated May 13, 2008
WisDOT form ERSS 11/03

Book 3
DOA HEARING LIST OF DOCUMENTS & EVIDENCE

Publications

Automobile Revue - Reprint from Swiss Army publication 25-1971
Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer operating instructions (selected pages)
Pinzgauer Of America sales brochure, circa 1979
Four Wheeler magazine article "Puch-Pinzgauer" August 1978
Car and Driver magazine article "Pinzgauer!" July 1978
Military Vehicles Magazine advertisement October 2007
Cold War Remarketing website printout (06/25/2008) www.coldwarremarketing.com
Wisconsin State Journal article "State law may take historic military vehicles off the road" Nov. 2007
AM General Company History Source: www.amgeneral.com
AM General Company Profile Source: www.amgeneral.com
New York Times article "Collision Odds Turn Lopsided As Sales of Big Vehicles Boom" March 1997
Lincoln Navigator Capacities Source: www.lincoln.com/navigator
Chevy Suburban Capacities Source: www.chevrolet.com/suburban
Hummer H2 Sales Brochure (Pgs. 1 & 6) Source: www.hummer.com
Ford Excursion Capacities Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Excursion
Hummer H1 Dimensions Source: www.edmunds.com/used/2004/hummer/h1

Book 4
DOA HEARING LIST OF DOCUMENTS & EVIDENCE

Relevant Incoming Correspondence

A) Letter from WisDOT/DMV dated September 25, 2007 included enclosure:
Corrected Wis Title
B) Letter from WisDOT/DMV to Thomas Landmann, dated September 25, 2007 included enclosure:
Corrected Wis Title
C) Letter from Senator to constituent dated October 10, 2007
Letter from Frank Busalacchi dated October 4, 2007 to Senator
Letter from Senator dated 2007 to Frank Busalacchi
D) Letter from DMV Linda Lewis dated January 9, 2008
E) Meeting Notes February 8 2008 Meeting Author: Jeff Rowsam - Mil. Veh. Collector Rep.
F) Meeting Notes March 5, 2008 Meeting Author: Jerry Deschane, Axley-Brynelson
G) Email Exchange between Tom Landmann, Anna Biermier and Paul Nilsen, dated April 3-8, 2008
H) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated April 17, 2008 included enclosures:
WisDOT Correspondence Memorandum DT1175 97 dated 2/4/08
DOT/DMV Memo BVS-06-10 dated 12/19/06
I) Email Exchange between Jerry Deschane and George Stauffer, dated April 19, 2008
J) Email Exchange between Paul Underwood & Tim Scobie, dated April 20-25, 2008
K) Email Exchange between Paul Underwood & Jerry Deschane, dated April 21, 2008
L) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated April 24, 2008 included enclosure:
NHTSA Letter of Interpretation d:12/3/04 to Ms. Kelly, dated 12/3/04
M) Letter from Mike Sheridan to Andy Shuler, dated April 29, 2008
N) Email Exchange between Andy Shuler and Tom Kelly dated May 13, 2008
O) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated May 23, 2008 included enclosures:
Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated May 9, 2008
WisDOT Statement of Scope re: Trans 123 dated May 13, 2008
P) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated May 29, 2008 included enclosure:
correspondence from Lynne Judd to Robert Jambois to Paul Nilsen dated Oct. - Nov. 2007
Q) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood dated June 5, 2008 included enclosures:
13 misc. pages
R) Letter from Colemann Sachs, US DOT, to Paul Underwood dated June 6, 2008
S) Letter from DMV Linda Lewis dated June 13, 2008
T) Email Exchange between Paul Underwood and Colemann Sachs, US DOT, dated June 16, 2008
U) Letter from Paul Nilsen to Paul Underwood, dated June 26, 2008

Book 5
DOA HEARING LIST OF DOCUMENTS & EVIDENCE

Correspondence to DMV

Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated April 7, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated April 18, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated April 25, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated May 21, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated May 27, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated May 28, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated April 29, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated April 30, 2008
Letter to Lynne Judd, dated June 1, 2008
Letter to Lynne Judd, dated June 2, 2008
Letter to Linda Lewis, dated June 3, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated June 3, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated June 6, 2008
Letter to Linda Lewis, dated June 16, 2008
Letter to Lynne Judd, dated June 19, 2008
Letter to Paul Nilsen, dated June 19, 2008
Letter to Lynn Judd, dated June 20, 2008

Case History

Letter to Judge Kaiser, dated July 18, 2003
Email Exchange between US DOT-NHTSA and Plaintiff, dated July 2003
Fax - Letter to Plaintiff from US DOT-NHTSA, dated July 3, 2003

Video

DVD Pinzgauer Factory Films 1, 2, & 3

texas pinzgauer · Post by **texas pinzgauer** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:25 pm

Good suggestion (too bad we actually need it).

Vince - maybe the Forum should have a new aditional "food group" called Pinz Legal Issues?

andy · Post by **andy** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:35 pm

There's another guy on Steel Soldiers who WI Dot won't let register his duece. These people are seriously anti-military, even if the truck is retired.

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:40 pm

[quote="Andy"]There's another guy on Steel Soldiers who WI Dot won't let register his duece. These people are seriously anti-military, even if the truck is retired.[/quote] Sounds like its not military if you read the very top there was a guy who had to fight the register his mini. Sounds like some one just on a power trip to me. Can it all be tracked back to one office?

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:12 am

Hi Andy,
Now there's another one of those damn Wisconsin muck-rakers on Steel Soldiers.

Eric,
WisDOT is intent upon expanding their authority to inspect all vehicles in Wisconsin. If they can set a long enough 'precedent', it'll stick legally. They're trying to set their precedent with our trucks.

It may have started off with a single individual. I don't know if that'll come out in the hearing or not.

Stay tuned....

andy · Post by **andy** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:36 pm

Paul, maybe your Pinz needs a little yellow light up front to be safe on the roads?

Andy

russ · Post by **russ** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:21 pm

I do think that a Pinz engine would make a great air boat engine!

THAT picture should be submitted as EVIDENCE!!! LOL

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:42 pm

Well, the Appeal Hearing is tomorrow. The truck is on a trailer to take along.

Last Friday, the DOT attorney made a motion to "quash" my subpoenas of the DOT employees. I sucessfully defended myself, and the judge ruled in my favor.

Although they will not have to appear tomorrow, they will be required to attend a later hearing, if I can show cause. I hope to do so.

More after tomorrow........

Paul

andy · Post by **andy** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:54 pm

Paul, I wish you the best of skill and a little luck never hurts to have. I'm sure you will be on pins and needles until the hearing but you've prepared well and will undoubtedly do fine. Rest as much as you can and let us know how it goes.

Wish you were closer, I'd be happy to drive my Pinz to help you out.

Andy

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:59 pm

The hearing was held Monday in Madison. It ran from 9:30am to about 6:15pm. I introduced 100 items of evidence. Due to the previous ruling delaying some subpoenaed DOT employees from testifying, I had until noon today to either pursue their testimony or cancel the subpoenas. I cancelled them, as it seemed likely to be nonproductive. Final arguments are due Friday, in writing.

At least 3 other owners are preparing to file complaints at this time.

More info to follow as soon as it seems prudent.

Paul

McCall Pinz · Post by **McCall Pinz** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:26 am

All I can say is "good luck" and keep up the fight. Hopefully it can be stopped before other states jump on the bandwagon.