Valve Adjust -> No Start!

[psylens]

Hello all,
I am new to this forum, but not new to the pinz. I have had one and been maintaining it myself for 5 years. I'm no mechanic, but have been successful at general maintenance, and upgrading the ignition. I have successfully adjusted the valves before without issue.

The other day it seemed to be running oddly - rough and lacking power. It would idle fine, but fell flat and sputtered a bit on accelleration. So i decided I'd adjust the valves a check the timing.

The valves didn't need much adjusting - some didn't need any.

I double-checked the clearance, reinstalled the spark plugs, and put the valve covers back on. I didn't touch the timing, and started it up to see if the valve adjustment made any difference. It simply won't start.

I've tried the choke in every position. I've checked every spark plug - all have spark, and seemingly at the right times. I've checked the spark plug firing order: 1-2-4-3. I've removed the air filter and poured a little gas down the throats to ensure there was gas and air. I've loosened and twisted the distributor about 10 degrees in either direction while turning the starter. I've ensured #1 spark plug is towards the front of the vehicle, and ensured it sparks at the top of the compression stroke when the timing mark is about 2 mm behind. I've checked the solenoids on the carbs "click".

All of this and it seems i'm getting no ignition. I have air, fuel and spark, but obviously the spark is at the wrong time, or the valves are ass-backward. I don't know how either of those could be, i *barely* made any adjustment to the valves.

Have I missed something? I must have. Has this happened to anybody else?

Thanks in advance

[Pinzgauer Pete]

Sounds like you covered all the bases....I was reading on some old posts that the 4500 rpm module which is located on the firewall behind the steering column could be the culprit for a crank but no start condition. It is a black box and has a harness with a connector going to it. You can test wether this is what is causing the problem by removing the plug, and making a 4 inch jumper wire with spade terminal ends...use this jumper to connect the two center terminals of the connector which is now left off of the 4500 rpm module....if it starts and runs normally you have found the problem...and owe me a beer..LOL...good luck...just a stab in the dark!

[blackstack]

The 4500 rpm indicator light should flash momentarily when you turn the key on if it is operating properly.

[undysworld]

Pete,

Good thought, but wouldn't that cut the ignition, which, IIRC, he's got?? Frankly, I'm stumped. Fuel, air, spark... ???

Blackstack,

Assuming that the bulb is good.

Psylens,

I assume you already know, but you're right by Dennis' shop (Linden Eng.). You might give him a ring and bounce this off him too. I know there are folks on this forum who are critical of him. But from my experience, he's always free with advice and pretty knowledgeable about Pinzies.

[Erik712m]

I have a feeling it's timing as the first symptoms point to timing not Valve adjustment . More than likely the the problem would have showed up before you adjusted the valves on your next start up. I'd play with the timing a bit.

[edzz]

You mention upgrading the ignition, are you aware of the Pertronix Coil Recall? "Pertronix Performance Products has issued a voluntary recall on their Flamethrower Epoxy Coils distributed between May, 2008 and October 30, 2009.” If your coil is one of those affected it may be at least part of the problem. A bad coil can show “open air” spark however have inadequate spark for ignition under compression. If you have one of these coils contact Scott at E.I.

Ed

[David Dunn]

Words and each person's interpetation of them will be different.
Without being there and and my "reading" into what you've written. Fuel starvation is my first guess... idling fine, then a hesitation on accelleration, that could be acceleration pump, low float level, blocked or low fuel supply to carbs.

RPM module could be going bad . Get a old ballast resistor and put a jumper inline to see if it changes things. With a Pertronix, you do not want to put direct 24v battery power it it.... your alternator/regulater could be bad and deliver over 30v and blow out the Pertronix ( overcharge.... very bad )

Coils will break down also with overvoltage... Usually very hot to touch after a short time, and usually will not allow a "hot " restart for about after 15 to 20 minutes when they cool down.

[buzzz]

psylens I am no expert for sure but over the past three years my 710m has acted the same way you have described both times it was moisture in the dissy cap. Might be worth a look.

Buzzz

[Jim LaGuardia]

Go back to the beginning, pull the plugs and do a compression test to verify valve operation( all cyls to be within 10% of each other). Other items to check are ANYTHING YOU TOUCHED/LOOSENED/TIGHTENED/.
Make sure the distributor is seated properly, if the distributor lifts while loose it can go 180deg out but won't seat down all the way.
Also make sure you have fuel and the the pump is working(pull the line to the rear carb /put to container and crank engine/fuel should flow)
Get to work now

[Fleg]

The 4500 rpm indicator light should flash momentarily when you turn the key on if it is operating properly.

My bulb must be blown out because my 4500 RPM light has never came on.

[psylens]

Hey thanks for all the responses. I'll address each one in order.

Pete, Blackstack
Thanks for this suggestion - The 4500 light does come on momentarily when i turn on the key. Plus i do get spark at the plugs.

undysworld
I was planning on having it towed to Dennis if i couldn't figure it out on my own, however i hadn't considered just discussing it with him over the phone - I will try that if the answer doesn't come soon. I feel pretty lame that i even have to get on a forum for this - i should be able to figure this out.

Erik712m
I'm totally with you on this. If i have spark and i have fuel and air, obviously the spark must be at the wrong time. I have tried from about 15 BTDC all the way out to about 15 degrees on the other side of TDC (ATDC? ). One might think i must have it 180 out, but that would put the wire for #1 on the other side of the distributor, 180 degrees away from the little mark on the distributor for #1.

edzz
I hadn't heard about the ignition recall. I got my flamethrower in 2005 or 2006, so i doubt i'm under this recall. I wonder how much spark is enough? I accidentally touched the metal on one of the plugs while testing spark and got a pretty good jolt... don't know if that means anything

David Dunn
The original symptom was that it was idling fine w/ hesitation at accelleration, however it won't even start anymore.

I may need more info to try out your idea regarding a resistor... not sure i entirely get that.

buzzz
Interesting suggestion. I checked under the dist. cap and there was no moisture - thanks anyways!

Jim
Well, i have taken everything back apart and put it back together. I reckon i'll do it again at least once or twice before having it towed to Linden Engineering. Next time i will check the compression (after i purchase a compression gauge).

I'm pretty sure the distributor is seated properly - it sparks the plugs at the right time - as far as i can tell.

I definitely have fuel - i've dumped gas down the throats, and i've tried engine starter spray. I have also ensured fuel delivery from the pump by disconnecting the fuel line and watching gas squirt out while turning the engine (actually got that idea from another post you made).

So with the exception of compression check and some sort of resistor install, i believe i've addressed all suggestions so far. I'm wondering if i were to put up a short 30 second video demonstrating what i'm witnessing; if that would be helpful at all. Maybe i haven't described something properly, or have left some details out.

Does anybody think a 30 second video would be helpful? It'd be real easy to put together and post.

[blackstack]

Video sounds good to me...only way i learn anything is by seeing

[Jim LaGuardia]

Have you verified fuel in tank or pulled the top off either carb top to verify fuel in the float bowls?
This may seem strange but float valves have been known to stick or become blocked with debris.
Also do a burn test on the fuel(put a couple drops in a pan and add flame)good fuel will light up before the flame hits the drops.

Firing order is 1 2 4 3 clockwise rotation

[psylens]

Have you verified fuel in tank or pulled the top off either carb top to verify fuel in the float bowls?
This may seem strange but float valves have been known to stick or become blocked with debris.
Also do a burn test on the fuel(put a couple drops in a pan and add flame)good fuel will light up before the flame hits the drops.

Firing order is 1 2 4 3 clockwise rotation

I'm leaning away from fuel delivery at the moment because i've poured gas down the throats - it should ignite and at least start for a second or two; but there is no ignition of fuel from what i can tell. I will try the burn test you mention. I think i'm going to put together a video today of everything i've tried - maybe that'll give a better picture.

Thanks.

[audiocontr]

I'm thinking spark. If you poured fuel in and there wasnt even an instant of ignition, then spark it is. I'm guessing timing actually.