2013 CB Performance Black Box Programmable Timing Control Module

[Hugues]

Has anyone got experience with this kit:
2013 CB Performance Black Box Programmable Timing Control Module
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2013.htm
It allows you to digitally play with your timing advance, while keeping your stock distributor, points, coil and plugs.
I'm checking this as I'm struggling to get a good timing advance curve that match the Pinz manual, just using the centrifugal weights.
I see some advantages:
-you keep your stock gear, so in case of problem with the electronic, it's not a big job to revert to centrifugal weights for advance control (just unlock them)
-you can customize and load a timing advance map from their software
-it has a MAP sensor to which you feed your vacuum line, so the advance timing is also taking into account your engine load, which the centrifugal weights alone cannot do
-so you can tune your advance to save some fuel at cruising speed
-from the instruction manual that you can download from their webpage, it seems rather easy to install and setup

what do you guys think ?
(i know about PinzSSI, but their website is no longer responding)

[rmel]

The advance curve in the manual is not necessarily the most ideal for this engine per se.

It's what could be achieved mechanically and reasonable for this engine. It also is the most
simple advance mechanism which is solely based on RPM. Detonation timing also would
benefit from knowing what the load on the engine is -- typically via the Intake manifold
pressure. So this is a pretty simple system which made some assumptions about load,
octane etc etc. If you want to get a better sense of where your timing is -- drive it. If
you have a octane knock too much advance or too low an octane. You could consider
getting your Pinz on a Dynamometer and getting some torque data vs load and RPM.

With respect to the CB box, I have no idea how that would perform but one thing I do
see is it does have a 5 bar MAP sensor. First, that needs to be replaced with a 1 Bar as
your not going to run boosted,and second, now you have a new variable to play with,
essentially a load AND RPM curve. There's no information in the Man about that so your
kind'a back at the getting real data part.

[ChickenPinz]

I see some advantages:
-you keep your stock gear, so in case of problem with the electronic, it's not a big job to revert to centrifugal weights for advance control (just unlock them)
-you can customize and load a timing advance map from their software
-it has a MAP sensor to which you feed your vacuum line, so the advance timing is also taking into account your engine load, which the centrifugal weights alone cannot do
-so you can tune your advance to save some fuel at cruising speed

What's your end goal for all of this effort? From what I can see, the only notable advantage you listed is the ability to push the timing to a higher advance in order to reduce fuel consumption. I question that it'd be worth it.

Keep in mind that more advanced timing will increase your CHTs. IMHO, as one who flies high-performance aircraft, I'd only go down this path if you add additional engine instrumentation to ensure you're not [unknowingly] increasing engine stress. I'd look primarily at CHTs. If you could get a knock sensor for the Pinz, that'd be great, but I don't think such a thing exists for it. And to be clear, with that sensor you'd be trying to detect pinging as knocking is too late.

[Hugues]

....

What's your end goal for all of this effort? From what I can see, the only notable advantage you listed is the ability to push the timing to a higher advance in order to reduce fuel consumption. I question that it'd be worth it.

Keep in mind that more advanced timing will increase your CHTs. IMHO, as one who flies high-performance aircraft, I'd only go down this path if you add additional engine instrumentation to ensure you're not [unknowingly] increasing engine stress. I'd look primarily at CHTs. If you could get a knock sensor for the Pinz, that'd be great, but I don't think such a thing exists for it. And to be clear, with that sensor you'd be trying to detect pinging as knocking is too late.

Thanks for your input.
My initial goal was not necessarily to reduce fuel consumption, that would fall in the "nice to have" category.
I've discussed the topic on the German forum, and i was quickly made aware that more complete systems exist, which provide many monitoring/input functions.
At the moment i'm looking into https://megasquirt.info/ and https://speeduino.com/home/
Both are comparable I believe.

Currently my advance curve is very crude. The only impact i have on it is through the centrifugal weights and springs. And a bit difficult to monitor and log what is going on while driving.
The 2 systems above, even if i don't use them initially to tune my advance in function of MAP, temperature and exhaust O2, would provide already some precious monitoring and logging possibilities.
Knowing how the engine is running is the first step towards optimizing it.

I ready both systems can take as input knock sensors. I'm not familiar with these, why do you say such sensors would not exist for the Pinz engine ?
This monitoring option would be nice when i travel to low octane countries I believe.

[rmel]

For what it's worth, attached is my advance curve for a 710 EFI. This would
be applicable to low MAP pressure (less vacuum, heavy load). Although the
MAP at low load is only an additional 4 degrees of advance and would be
applicable at Idle and low load situations. The contribution to advance due
to MAP will drop to 0 at moderate to high loads.

This curve represents characterizing the engine on a Dyno then years of
tweaking thereafter -- monitoring AFR, port temperatures, and performance.
As you can see, advance is more progressive up to 1500 RPM then flattens out.
I do run 91 High Octane. In Europe, since on the RON system, this would be
closer to a 100 number. Point is my advance may seem aggressive but not in
the context of High Octane.

IMHO, I'd get some experience with your motor -- as is -- before moving away
from the stock setup in spite of the curve you have. Giving different grades of
fuel a try.

Screenshot 2024-03-28 at 9.31.31 AM.png (361.64 KiB) Viewed 4887 times

[Hugues]

Interesting. It's good to see real life data.
Below I've overlayed the recommended stock Pinz advance range, just out of curiosity.
I'm planning to go step by step indeed.
I'll probably jump in with the Speeduino, adding a toothed wheel on my crankpulley,
this way i can run stock with my current mechanical advance, and use Speeduino for data acquisition only and see if my crank trigger signal is steady.
Then I should be able to compare the output from Speeduino with the recommended stock Pinz advance and match it,
then i can switch to Speeduino to control my advance, starting with idle check, just a simple "static" map that will keep my advance as-is,
then when i'm confident with what i see and hear, i can slowly integrate other sensors one by one, MAP first, and impact my advance.
I still think i can add a knock sensor, people have done it on old Porsche and VW engines, at least I'll try, for monitoring.

thanks for the data, maybe one day i'll look into EFI too,

advance.png (296.04 KiB) Viewed 4881 times

[McCall Pinz]

Hello Hugues,
PinzSSI is no longer available, but PowerArc was the manufacturer of the system and might be helpful- https://www.powerarc.com/papinzssi.html Even though I'm happy with my PinzSSI system, I'm also considering a Speeduino system as it allows for a precise spark control now and eventually is the basis for an EFI system. Keep us posted with your progress.

[Hugues]

Hello Hugues,
PinzSSI is no longer available, but PowerArc was the manufacturer of the system and might be helpful- https://www.powerarc.com/papinzssi.html Even though I'm happy with my PinzSSI system, I'm also considering a Speeduino system as it allows for a precise spark control now and eventually is the basis for an EFI system. Keep us posted with your progress.

I went for the Megasquirt Pro Mini finally
My progress thread here :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12789
I'm about to test it for ignition advance.