Erik, thanks for the offer, but I usually don't call. The only thing varmint hunting wise I actually used to hunt for were coyotes when I lived in an area where they were. Too me it was a thrill a minute to have them come running in. Usually the first thing to come to a call was either an owl or a hawk.
Foxes and bobcats are usually just targets of opportunity. IF they are around, IF I see them, and IF I happen to have a gun handy, I might take a shot. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, no rhyme or reason to it really that I've ever figured out. Most of the time I don't bother with even a pistol except for spring (mid March through May) or fall (September through late November) when the rattlesnakes are out. Rattlesnakes are the exception to my try to balance it philosophy. There are enough other snakes around to keep the rat and mouse populations down.
BTW, snakes, skunks, and racoons are usually the biggest predators of quail nests.
Jer Bear, feral housecats kill more song birds and other birds than all other causes combined. They are actually the most prolific predator around. There isn't a bounty on them only because they aren't big enough to take livestock.
Mountain Lion Pic from Today
Good informative post John. I have always had a hard time with the line between farmers and ranchers. Many of my neighbors who are "farmers" also run 80 to 800 cows (on pasture, not feed yards). Most farms in our area contain enough rough land to create this situation. A bit to our west (West River country of the Dakotas) most "ranchers" also farm 500 to a few thousand acres. In large areas of this country, at least east of the 100th, people involved in agriculture wear both hats according to the makeup of their land.springhill wrote:Farmers receive the most money from the government ( Farmers are not ranchers ).
john
Lloyd
I agree that large predators are an integral part of nature and belong in wild environments. The question is - How far does "nature" extend?
As an example - We have had mountain lion problems on our place for the last eight years. Prior to that they were considered absent from Iowa for the previous hundred years. Originally I had the attitude that I would not bother them if they did not bother me.
But:
-They have killed a couple of our calfs.
-Taken innumerable farm cats, goats, etc.
-Stalk the perimeters of our heifer pens looking for an easy meal.
-Sometimes sit in heavy cover 100 feet from our front door at night, takes a lot of yelling and shooting to send one on its way.
-Ate our Border Collie last spring - just 100 yards from where we were working at the time.
-My wife is now forced to be armed on her walks. We constantly have to dispatch rabid coons and skunks, I really don't want to come across a 200 pound cat with rabies.
I have set up a FAL with a good ranging scope and have about a 1000 yard kill zone from our house decks. Kitty Cat has failed its probationary period. Also got a couple Anatolian Shepherd puppies to discourage the cats from coming too close to the house. One dog is a snack but I am hoping that two or more are perceived as a pack.
Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to add personal experience to let people understand the other side of the argument of predator control.
Lloyd
As an example - We have had mountain lion problems on our place for the last eight years. Prior to that they were considered absent from Iowa for the previous hundred years. Originally I had the attitude that I would not bother them if they did not bother me.
But:
-They have killed a couple of our calfs.
-Taken innumerable farm cats, goats, etc.
-Stalk the perimeters of our heifer pens looking for an easy meal.
-Sometimes sit in heavy cover 100 feet from our front door at night, takes a lot of yelling and shooting to send one on its way.
-Ate our Border Collie last spring - just 100 yards from where we were working at the time.
-My wife is now forced to be armed on her walks. We constantly have to dispatch rabid coons and skunks, I really don't want to come across a 200 pound cat with rabies.
I have set up a FAL with a good ranging scope and have about a 1000 yard kill zone from our house decks. Kitty Cat has failed its probationary period. Also got a couple Anatolian Shepherd puppies to discourage the cats from coming too close to the house. One dog is a snack but I am hoping that two or more are perceived as a pack.
Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to add personal experience to let people understand the other side of the argument of predator control.
Lloyd
Just want to clarify I am not anti-rancher. Heck I'ld starve to death without beef! Farmers and ranchers are some of the hardest workring folks on Earth. Just pointing out that when you have a ranch smack in the middle of the wilderness, like they are here, predators should be taken as a cost of doing business. The ranchers here are reimbursed for kills by wolves, but I know it's hard to prove as they do tend to eat the evidence. As far as cruelty, yup nature is cruel. I don't see a difference between a predator taking an elk calf, buffalo calf, or cattle calf. That being said if I saw one stalking my dog, a child, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to waste it.
Drawing that line of where to allow predators to do their thing, and where they need to be controlled is the key to the whole argument. When we are on "their" turf and they are on "ours" is a tough call. Is wildlife encroaching on society or the other way around? Great issues for debate, and ones people feel very strongly about either way.
I have no problem with a regulated hunt and control when the populations are stable. I do have a serious problem with extirpation of a species because of perceptions they are "evil" or the economic damage they can do.
Always great to hear the opinions and how the issues affect people first hand.
Drawing that line of where to allow predators to do their thing, and where they need to be controlled is the key to the whole argument. When we are on "their" turf and they are on "ours" is a tough call. Is wildlife encroaching on society or the other way around? Great issues for debate, and ones people feel very strongly about either way.
I have no problem with a regulated hunt and control when the populations are stable. I do have a serious problem with extirpation of a species because of perceptions they are "evil" or the economic damage they can do.
Always great to hear the opinions and how the issues affect people first hand.
1973 712M
She was a good 200-300 yards away. I have a Canon 40D camera that had a 300 f 2.8 with a 2x converter on it. She was still pretty small in the frame. I cropped it down about as far as I could. Camera is 10 MP. Ironically I just got the camera last week (traded my 10D) as this was the very first animal I shot with it.Erik Maybee wrote:Todd, about how far away were you when you took the pic? What power are you using for a photo lens? I would think the noise of the pinz would have scared the cat away.
Ha Ha, Pinz does scare everything for some reason. Even the bison run when they see me coming! I was driving my "company car" at the time.
She was in a pretty safe spot for her. It was on a pretty steep slope and had a commanding view of anything that would have approached her. Can't see it in this pic, but she looked to be pregnant, or maybe her stomach was distended from gorging on her kill. Game and Fish estimated her at 250 pounds!
1973 712M
Dang! A 250 pound cat is not small down here, especially a female.
Peculiar that your Pinz scares everything and I can get much much closer with mine than even the other truck I use to feed also. I wonder if that is a 6 wheel vs four wheel thing.
I have a very left leaning friend who gets on me about killing racoons. He says I set up a buffet in the 'coon's house so what do I expect? I could tolerate the coons alot better if they just ate and left, but they have to waste and tear stuff up. That portion of it exemplifies the who is encroaching on whom thing. We are definitely encroaching but usually live and let live works. It's things like leaving garbage out in the suburbs which attracts coons, bears or coyotes depending on where you live or feeding deer in your yard because they are cute that makes them less fearful of man, which in turn creates the problems.
We are also to blame for going overboard on fixing things. We came real close to wiping out deer in this country. No everybody and their brother is feeding them, planting food plots, drilling new wells. All that leads to a population explosion and when coupled with livestock, such as sheep, goats, and cattle, you are just asking to over graze your land. The loser eventually will be the whitetail because they cannot adapt to other foods the way the other ruminants can.
Best thing, in my opinion, is try to maintain a balance, but if there is a problem animal take it out. Like Todd, I have no problem taking out animals that are dangerous, cause excessive damage, or make themselves a pest.
Bottom line on that is we are at the top of the food chain.
Andy
Peculiar that your Pinz scares everything and I can get much much closer with mine than even the other truck I use to feed also. I wonder if that is a 6 wheel vs four wheel thing.
I have a very left leaning friend who gets on me about killing racoons. He says I set up a buffet in the 'coon's house so what do I expect? I could tolerate the coons alot better if they just ate and left, but they have to waste and tear stuff up. That portion of it exemplifies the who is encroaching on whom thing. We are definitely encroaching but usually live and let live works. It's things like leaving garbage out in the suburbs which attracts coons, bears or coyotes depending on where you live or feeding deer in your yard because they are cute that makes them less fearful of man, which in turn creates the problems.
We are also to blame for going overboard on fixing things. We came real close to wiping out deer in this country. No everybody and their brother is feeding them, planting food plots, drilling new wells. All that leads to a population explosion and when coupled with livestock, such as sheep, goats, and cattle, you are just asking to over graze your land. The loser eventually will be the whitetail because they cannot adapt to other foods the way the other ruminants can.
Best thing, in my opinion, is try to maintain a balance, but if there is a problem animal take it out. Like Todd, I have no problem taking out animals that are dangerous, cause excessive damage, or make themselves a pest.
Bottom line on that is we are at the top of the food chain.
Andy
Erik, pelts are usually only prime here from November through January maybe into Feb. a little bit. That time frame just happens to coincide with deer season here. If I'm not feeding then I'm guiding and really don't have time to mess with it. Hides in the freezer is one of the things the wife puts her foot down on and it stays down.
I'm just not that much into killing stuff in my old age anymore. Doesn't mean I won't do it. Even does or cull bucks for food is more of a mechanical thing anymore than an adventure.
Coons are a different story and Corsican sheep for that matter, until I get the numbers down to something that approaches balance and carrying capacity for one ranch in particular. But, it's a necessary thing and it too has become mechanical. I just try to make it quick.
I just see too much to marvel at everyday out there. There is hardly a day goes by that I don't thank the Good Lord for letting me see something unique. When you look and really see how it all fits together it kinda makes ya think. I'm not totally converted yet, I'd still go coyote hunting in a nanosecond.
I'm just not that much into killing stuff in my old age anymore. Doesn't mean I won't do it. Even does or cull bucks for food is more of a mechanical thing anymore than an adventure.
Coons are a different story and Corsican sheep for that matter, until I get the numbers down to something that approaches balance and carrying capacity for one ranch in particular. But, it's a necessary thing and it too has become mechanical. I just try to make it quick.
I just see too much to marvel at everyday out there. There is hardly a day goes by that I don't thank the Good Lord for letting me see something unique. When you look and really see how it all fits together it kinda makes ya think. I'm not totally converted yet, I'd still go coyote hunting in a nanosecond.
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springhill
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: New Mexico
Quote from Andy"John, good posts. Now I'm sitting here wondering why I feel the need to defend myself. Maybe it's not necessary, but just to set the record straight"
I actually agree with you 100% on your comments. There have been people who abuse the BLM system and have caused numerous headaches for other ranchers. I think that happens in other industries also, but you hardly ever hear about the good things that people do. There are more game animals on private property here than there is on State Land, due to the fact that ranchers have developed the water where there was only seasonal watering holes. I'm sure you have the same where you live.
I don't like hunting ranches--mainly due to land prices getting way out of hand. This causes problems with family ranches because at the death of the owner, the value is based on land sales that include recreational ranches ( hunting land). This makes it harder for the family to hold onto land. Capital Gains Tax is a major burden. There are many families that are Corporate, including mine. This is done because the value at death is based on the value of the Shares of the Corporation, plus it makes it more difficult for multi-owners to sell their shares. This helps to keep the land all together instead of selling off pieces just because someone wants the money. Otherwise, there is little tax benefit to being a Corp.. You must pay capital gains on any retained earnings---this makes it tough to save money back for land purchases and "in case of emergency" money. I usually spend any extra money on ranch improvements before tax time.
Damn, can I rant on.
I apologize for not saying what a good picture that was!! It is very rare for you to even see a mountain lion, much less get a picture! I often wonder how many cats I have ridden horseback by? Kinda makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck!
john
I actually agree with you 100% on your comments. There have been people who abuse the BLM system and have caused numerous headaches for other ranchers. I think that happens in other industries also, but you hardly ever hear about the good things that people do. There are more game animals on private property here than there is on State Land, due to the fact that ranchers have developed the water where there was only seasonal watering holes. I'm sure you have the same where you live.
I don't like hunting ranches--mainly due to land prices getting way out of hand. This causes problems with family ranches because at the death of the owner, the value is based on land sales that include recreational ranches ( hunting land). This makes it harder for the family to hold onto land. Capital Gains Tax is a major burden. There are many families that are Corporate, including mine. This is done because the value at death is based on the value of the Shares of the Corporation, plus it makes it more difficult for multi-owners to sell their shares. This helps to keep the land all together instead of selling off pieces just because someone wants the money. Otherwise, there is little tax benefit to being a Corp.. You must pay capital gains on any retained earnings---this makes it tough to save money back for land purchases and "in case of emergency" money. I usually spend any extra money on ranch improvements before tax time.
Damn, can I rant on.
I apologize for not saying what a good picture that was!! It is very rare for you to even see a mountain lion, much less get a picture! I often wonder how many cats I have ridden horseback by? Kinda makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck!
john
"Growing Old is Mandatory
Growing Up is Optional"
Growing Up is Optional"
John, I understand about corporations and limited partnerships. I'm talking about big companies not families that have had to incorporate to protect themselves.
Texas may as well not have any public land. What there is, is in East Texas and is heavily used and abused.
Hunting ranches are the coming thing. Right now, mostly it's ranchers leasing hunting rights either to groups of individuals or outfitters. But, the guys that are putting a high fence around 3 or 400 acres and calling it a hunting ranch are making gains too. I dislike that because it just isn't right. Even if there is a hill and trees it's still a pen.
One place I guide on is 12,500 acres. The man can run about 80 cows and 300 sheep on it. By leasing hunting rights to an outfitter he brings in about $50K a year. No doctoring, no rounding up, no shearers to pay with deer. Everything else he does costs him money.
Land prices are going nuts here too because of recreational interests. Another problem I see here is on some of the ranches that have been here for generations the younger kids have all moved to the big cities and want to sell instead of going back. They want that money. It really bothers their parents who by now are too old to run a place that's over 14,000 acres of some of the most beautiful country in Tx. I mean almost mountain like hills, canyons, and a spring fed river that is one of the least polluted in the state. Hard to imagine trading that for money.
In my original effort to clear things up I mentioned Donald Trump, I meant Ted Turner.
All in all I'd rather live out here in the boondocks and visit the city if I get a lemming like compulsion than live in the city and visit the boonies. Post more often John.
IA712...Those are some really cool dogs. It's hard to believe you all have a mountain lion problem up there. Their home territory is usually something on the order of 8 to 10 square miles. That's a lot of country.
Texas may as well not have any public land. What there is, is in East Texas and is heavily used and abused.
Hunting ranches are the coming thing. Right now, mostly it's ranchers leasing hunting rights either to groups of individuals or outfitters. But, the guys that are putting a high fence around 3 or 400 acres and calling it a hunting ranch are making gains too. I dislike that because it just isn't right. Even if there is a hill and trees it's still a pen.
One place I guide on is 12,500 acres. The man can run about 80 cows and 300 sheep on it. By leasing hunting rights to an outfitter he brings in about $50K a year. No doctoring, no rounding up, no shearers to pay with deer. Everything else he does costs him money.
Land prices are going nuts here too because of recreational interests. Another problem I see here is on some of the ranches that have been here for generations the younger kids have all moved to the big cities and want to sell instead of going back. They want that money. It really bothers their parents who by now are too old to run a place that's over 14,000 acres of some of the most beautiful country in Tx. I mean almost mountain like hills, canyons, and a spring fed river that is one of the least polluted in the state. Hard to imagine trading that for money.
In my original effort to clear things up I mentioned Donald Trump, I meant Ted Turner.
All in all I'd rather live out here in the boondocks and visit the city if I get a lemming like compulsion than live in the city and visit the boonies. Post more often John.
IA712...Those are some really cool dogs. It's hard to believe you all have a mountain lion problem up there. Their home territory is usually something on the order of 8 to 10 square miles. That's a lot of country.
Todds - That is a fantastic picture! It is rare to be in the right place and time with a camera.
Andy-We really don't know how large their ranges are here. There is plenty of food for them so they may have smaller territories than they do out west. Our place seems to be on a feeding loop. Often we see cat activity in intervals of three weeks and a couple days.
It's a shame to see the changes in land ownership and use out west. Here the agricultural economic value of the land is still much higher than recreational use. Farms just keep getting larger and people fewer. One reason the cats have moved back into Iowa after 100 years may be that there are probably only a quarter of the people in the rural areas compared to 80 years ago.
Estate taxes are probably the biggest cause of land not staying in the original families. At current high values it is next to impossible to come up with enough cash to give the IRS almost 50%. Someone may have bought farmland for $800/acre in the mid 1980's and their families would have to pay the IRS almost $3000/acre in taxes if they dropped dead tomorrow. Tough to do if you are "land rich and cash poor".
Andy-We really don't know how large their ranges are here. There is plenty of food for them so they may have smaller territories than they do out west. Our place seems to be on a feeding loop. Often we see cat activity in intervals of three weeks and a couple days.
It's a shame to see the changes in land ownership and use out west. Here the agricultural economic value of the land is still much higher than recreational use. Farms just keep getting larger and people fewer. One reason the cats have moved back into Iowa after 100 years may be that there are probably only a quarter of the people in the rural areas compared to 80 years ago.
Estate taxes are probably the biggest cause of land not staying in the original families. At current high values it is next to impossible to come up with enough cash to give the IRS almost 50%. Someone may have bought farmland for $800/acre in the mid 1980's and their families would have to pay the IRS almost $3000/acre in taxes if they dropped dead tomorrow. Tough to do if you are "land rich and cash poor".