(This is a pretty large crop from the original)
Mountain Lion Pic from Today
Mountain Lion Pic from Today
Found this gal just south of the town limits on a hillside. Not sure if she took down the buck or it was a winter kill. In either case, no one was contesting her for it.
(This is a pretty large crop from the original)
(This is a pretty large crop from the original)
1973 712M
What a coincidence. I just found a yearling fawn that had been killed by a mountain lion today on one of the ranches. The whole rear end (hams had been eaten. You could see where the fangs went into the neck.
No sign of the cat though.
They take about one deer a week, more if they have kittens.
Great pic though.
No sign of the cat though.
They take about one deer a week, more if they have kittens.
Great pic though.
Yup, wildlife and the scenery are the reasons I came out. It's so tough to live here (financially), but sights like this make it worth it.Erik Maybee wrote:Todd, Great pic you should fill very lucky to leave in such a place. the biggest cat around here weight under 25 pound. That maybe why we have such big deer
Cats and wolves are very controversial subjects here. There are enough old ranchers here that think the only good predators are dead predators. There are lots of greenies on the opposite end of the spectrum, too.
I thinks it's great to see the predators doing what they were intended to do. It's a sign of a healthy eco-system. It's amazing the changes that can take place when a creature is eliminated or added to the system.
The reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone has had many unexpected repercussions: The mule deer, song birds, and many trees/shrubs are increasing. They figure the elk are being harassed and chased around enough that the trees have a chance to grow back without being overbrowsed. The trees then provide shelter for the mule deer, etc. etc. Now the elk population has dropped somewhat, but the ones that are left healthier....Off my soapbox now.
1973 712M
Interesting how millions of years of fine tuning seems to work effortlessly.
Saw a very interesting show on Chernobyl's wildlife and how, while irradiated, is very quickly returning back to wilderness and the wildlife is thriving. Several mutations have been seen, such as bird color changes but they died out. It seems that typically wildlife doesn't naturally live long enough to develop the cancers we are concerned with. Of course a lot more generations would need to be seen to draw long term conclusions but nature is a resilient force!
Saw a very interesting show on Chernobyl's wildlife and how, while irradiated, is very quickly returning back to wilderness and the wildlife is thriving. Several mutations have been seen, such as bird color changes but they died out. It seems that typically wildlife doesn't naturally live long enough to develop the cancers we are concerned with. Of course a lot more generations would need to be seen to draw long term conclusions but nature is a resilient force!
If you didn't get stuck, you didn't try hard enough.
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
'74 710K
1984 in 2009
This is a wonderful thing what you report I cannot express how important that sort of thing is too me and to see the benefits so soon. Lets hope that this is extended into other places also.
Their are many wild life experts who would like to reintroduce the Wolf into some of the Scottish islands and fenced areas of the highlands. Unfortunately again it is the farming community who are resisting it. Farming is very heavily subsidized in GB so I do not know why something could be set up or that they were told to just get on with it. Unfortunately with another conservation success story, their is some disturbing things going on the Sea Eagle and the Golden Eagle are shot at and poisoned by some farmers and on some shooting estates even though they are protected by Law and the penalties can be high.
Their are many wild life experts who would like to reintroduce the Wolf into some of the Scottish islands and fenced areas of the highlands. Unfortunately again it is the farming community who are resisting it. Farming is very heavily subsidized in GB so I do not know why something could be set up or that they were told to just get on with it. Unfortunately with another conservation success story, their is some disturbing things going on the Sea Eagle and the Golden Eagle are shot at and poisoned by some farmers and on some shooting estates even though they are protected by Law and the penalties can be high.
todds112 wrote:Yup, wildlife and the scenery are the reasons I came out. It's so tough to live here (financially), but sights like this make it worth it.Erik Maybee wrote:Todd, Great pic you should fill very lucky to leave in such a place. the biggest cat around here weight under 25 pound. That maybe why we have such big deer
Cats and wolves are very controversial subjects here. There are enough old ranchers here that think the only good predators are dead predators. There are lots of greenies on the opposite end of the spectrum, too.
I thinks it's great to see the predators doing what they were intended to do. It's a sign of a healthy eco-system. It's amazing the changes that can take place when a creature is eliminated or added to the system.
The reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone has had many unexpected repercussions: The mule deer, song birds, and many trees/shrubs are increasing. They figure the elk are being harassed and chased around enough that the trees have a chance to grow back without being overbrowsed. The trees then provide shelter for the mule deer, etc. etc. Now the elk population has dropped somewhat, but the ones that are left healthier....Off my soapbox now.
Anthony
GB
GB
I just recently read that the new brewing controversy is that the government wants to remove wolves from the endangered species list. The greenies don't not want it and the ranchers do.
We as a species tend to get a little arrogant when we think we can manipulate nature after we usually have unbalanced it. There are always unintended consequences to that, sometimes good, but more often than not they do more harm than good.
While there are some welcome positives in what Todd writes about, the wolves (allegedly) have done so well that there territory is expanding and the worry is that they will expand into more heavily populated areas such as the populated areas of the eastern slope of the Rockies in Colorado. There the consequences are expected to be much the same as has happened in California with the ban on killing mountain lions. Fifi the poodle will come up missing and there will be curly hairs in the mountain lion scat.
We as a species tend to get a little arrogant when we think we can manipulate nature after we usually have unbalanced it. There are always unintended consequences to that, sometimes good, but more often than not they do more harm than good.
While there are some welcome positives in what Todd writes about, the wolves (allegedly) have done so well that there territory is expanding and the worry is that they will expand into more heavily populated areas such as the populated areas of the eastern slope of the Rockies in Colorado. There the consequences are expected to be much the same as has happened in California with the ban on killing mountain lions. Fifi the poodle will come up missing and there will be curly hairs in the mountain lion scat.
Yeah it's pretty heated right now. Of course you see the "Kill a wolf save 100 elk" bumper stickers. I don't get this because before we (people) settled this area, there were plenty of both. The difference is the elk weren't as lazy and were healthier overall.
I'm not anti-hunting. A well managed and regulated hunt is good for the ecosytem with the sustainable wildlife. The predators are the pinacle species and the system needs them to work. Granted no one wants to see a pack prowling the town square, so some control is necessary. But I just can't sympathize with the ranchers, whose ranches happen to be located in the middle of pristine wilderness, get upset when their calves get eaten by a wolf or a grizzly. It's like building a home on the beach then complaining about the hurricanes.
It's a hot button issue and everyone will never agree. I am happy that I live in area where it is being discussed though.
I'm not anti-hunting. A well managed and regulated hunt is good for the ecosytem with the sustainable wildlife. The predators are the pinacle species and the system needs them to work. Granted no one wants to see a pack prowling the town square, so some control is necessary. But I just can't sympathize with the ranchers, whose ranches happen to be located in the middle of pristine wilderness, get upset when their calves get eaten by a wolf or a grizzly. It's like building a home on the beach then complaining about the hurricanes.
It's a hot button issue and everyone will never agree. I am happy that I live in area where it is being discussed though.
1973 712M
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springhill
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: New Mexico
I guess since I ranch for a living that I should chime in on this subject.
I have limited knowledge on BLM because there isn't any within 80 miles of me. First point, ranchers are not heavily subsidized contrary to anti-ranching organizations. Agriculture as a whole is thrown into that category, which livestock production receives little if any government help. I do not consider dairies to be in the ranching business as they are a totally different livestock industry. Farmers receive the most money from the government ( Farmers are not ranchers ). The only subsidies that I know of in my area are drought and blizzard assistance. These are given when there have been high death losses due to natural disasters. The money given ( If you sign up through the local Conservation and Natural Resource Office ) covers about 25% of actual losses. Considering the average return for a average ranch is 2 to 4 percent, this helps the rancher, but in no way does it make them rich.
The majority of ranches in my area are private land and some State School Lease land. I'm talking millions of acres that are private. There are ranches that were homesteaded and still in the same family over one hundred years later. Most "OLD RANCHERS" here do not want the governments welfare money and refuse to sign up for the programs.
There are programs that are for natural resource conservation that are a good thing for the ecosystem, such as fencing off creeks and riparian areas. BUT, the small print lets government officials to come on to your private land anytime they want. Contrary to popular belief, private land is usually more pristine than govt. land due to the fact that we don't let the general public run amuck wherever they want. We take care of the land better than the govt. does because our living comes from taking care of it. If you overgraze, you ruin the grass, if you have no grass then you can't feed your cows which means you have no income. That is the simple explanation, which I could make more complicated ( just ask more questions if you want to know details).
As far as mountain lion and wolves are concerned. It is true that ranchers killed off most of the wolves in the late 1800's. They are a super predator that has its place in this world. It's place is not in the cattle business, but in the wilderness. The problem is that the wolves do not have boundaries and migrate to privately held land. They do this because a baby calf ( 50 to 100 pounds) is a much easier meal to catch than elk and deer. Considering a weaned 600 pound calf is worth about $700 and the fact that a pack of wolves could easily take one per day, I guess ranchers might be a little worried. Consider that 20 calves are worth $14,000. Could you take that big of a loss in one month---considering it would take a full year for a cow to produce another saleable calf?
BLM leases are very stringent. They only allow a certain number of cattle for a set amount of days. A typical lease allows one cow per 100 acres, whereas private land in our area will run one cow per 40 acres for 365 days. BLM leasees must do water improvements and keep up the fences.
One mile of fence will cost about $8000 new. A typical 25,000 acre ranch in my area will have about 200 miles of fence. So, that means it would cost about 1.6 million to replace all the fence. That size ranch, if it is a good year, will gross about 400,000 per year. You do the math.
A typical 25,000 acre ranch, which is about 40 square miles, will run about 500 cows. A rancher will wean about 90% of the calves born. 3% of the calves will be lost due to calving difficulty and weather. 3% percent will be lost to abortions and other problems with the cow. 4% will be lost to predators, such as coyotes and wild dogs ( and mountain lions in my area). In the areas where there are wolves, the number is much higher.
The actual number is hard to prove because you must catch the wolf with a fresh kill. There is little left after they are done.
Fortunately I do not have to deal with wolves, but I have extensive experience with coyotes. I have found cows that were in the process of calving that were preyed upon by coyotes. For your info, a cow lies on her side to have a baby and the process can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours. The coyotes will attack a cow during this process and will kill and eat the baby calf before it is completely out of the cow. Sometimes the coyotes will actually eat the rear end out of the cow while she is down ( The cow gets worn out from birthing and cannot get up ). I have had to shoot more than one cow because there was nothing that could be done to save her. The Anti-ranching animal rights people have no idea of the cruelty that nature deals out. Every year I have calves that survived coyote attacks and have no tail or the ears and nose have been mangled.
I guess I have gone on long enough, but you might get the picture. I could go into more detail, but I don't know if anyone cares. I just hope you have a little more than just the one sided view that the national media and multi-billion dollar environmental groups want you to know.
I would be happy to answer any questions you have about ranching.
john
I have limited knowledge on BLM because there isn't any within 80 miles of me. First point, ranchers are not heavily subsidized contrary to anti-ranching organizations. Agriculture as a whole is thrown into that category, which livestock production receives little if any government help. I do not consider dairies to be in the ranching business as they are a totally different livestock industry. Farmers receive the most money from the government ( Farmers are not ranchers ). The only subsidies that I know of in my area are drought and blizzard assistance. These are given when there have been high death losses due to natural disasters. The money given ( If you sign up through the local Conservation and Natural Resource Office ) covers about 25% of actual losses. Considering the average return for a average ranch is 2 to 4 percent, this helps the rancher, but in no way does it make them rich.
The majority of ranches in my area are private land and some State School Lease land. I'm talking millions of acres that are private. There are ranches that were homesteaded and still in the same family over one hundred years later. Most "OLD RANCHERS" here do not want the governments welfare money and refuse to sign up for the programs.
There are programs that are for natural resource conservation that are a good thing for the ecosystem, such as fencing off creeks and riparian areas. BUT, the small print lets government officials to come on to your private land anytime they want. Contrary to popular belief, private land is usually more pristine than govt. land due to the fact that we don't let the general public run amuck wherever they want. We take care of the land better than the govt. does because our living comes from taking care of it. If you overgraze, you ruin the grass, if you have no grass then you can't feed your cows which means you have no income. That is the simple explanation, which I could make more complicated ( just ask more questions if you want to know details).
As far as mountain lion and wolves are concerned. It is true that ranchers killed off most of the wolves in the late 1800's. They are a super predator that has its place in this world. It's place is not in the cattle business, but in the wilderness. The problem is that the wolves do not have boundaries and migrate to privately held land. They do this because a baby calf ( 50 to 100 pounds) is a much easier meal to catch than elk and deer. Considering a weaned 600 pound calf is worth about $700 and the fact that a pack of wolves could easily take one per day, I guess ranchers might be a little worried. Consider that 20 calves are worth $14,000. Could you take that big of a loss in one month---considering it would take a full year for a cow to produce another saleable calf?
BLM leases are very stringent. They only allow a certain number of cattle for a set amount of days. A typical lease allows one cow per 100 acres, whereas private land in our area will run one cow per 40 acres for 365 days. BLM leasees must do water improvements and keep up the fences.
One mile of fence will cost about $8000 new. A typical 25,000 acre ranch in my area will have about 200 miles of fence. So, that means it would cost about 1.6 million to replace all the fence. That size ranch, if it is a good year, will gross about 400,000 per year. You do the math.
A typical 25,000 acre ranch, which is about 40 square miles, will run about 500 cows. A rancher will wean about 90% of the calves born. 3% of the calves will be lost due to calving difficulty and weather. 3% percent will be lost to abortions and other problems with the cow. 4% will be lost to predators, such as coyotes and wild dogs ( and mountain lions in my area). In the areas where there are wolves, the number is much higher.
The actual number is hard to prove because you must catch the wolf with a fresh kill. There is little left after they are done.
Fortunately I do not have to deal with wolves, but I have extensive experience with coyotes. I have found cows that were in the process of calving that were preyed upon by coyotes. For your info, a cow lies on her side to have a baby and the process can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours. The coyotes will attack a cow during this process and will kill and eat the baby calf before it is completely out of the cow. Sometimes the coyotes will actually eat the rear end out of the cow while she is down ( The cow gets worn out from birthing and cannot get up ). I have had to shoot more than one cow because there was nothing that could be done to save her. The Anti-ranching animal rights people have no idea of the cruelty that nature deals out. Every year I have calves that survived coyote attacks and have no tail or the ears and nose have been mangled.
I guess I have gone on long enough, but you might get the picture. I could go into more detail, but I don't know if anyone cares. I just hope you have a little more than just the one sided view that the national media and multi-billion dollar environmental groups want you to know.
I would be happy to answer any questions you have about ranching.
john
"Growing Old is Mandatory
Growing Up is Optional"
Growing Up is Optional"
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springhill
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: New Mexico
QUOTE"Todd the other part of the rancher thing...which isn't discussed too much, is I bet most of them lease hundreds or thousands of acres of BLM land to run their livestock and then want to charge for access."
A rancher cannot charge for access on govt. owned land. They can try to limit access, but cannot enforce it. Thank god for private land.
Due to the Homestead Act, most good agriculture land is private. The land that people could not make a living on was reclaimed by the govt. Just because the scenery is pretty, doesn't make it productive. Some of it is very productive for cattle, but for the most part it is too rough and the environment is too harsh.
Not bashing, just want both sides known.
A little history note--My grandfather bought this ranch in 1929 (Depression Years ) and it took him 50 some years to pay it off. How many of you would start a business that could take that long to pay off, especially if you might not be alive when it is payed off. Those years are long gone now----no one could buy a ranch with borrowed money and pay it off in their lifetime. My grandfather paid an average of 4 dollars per acre and now it is 750 dollars per acre. Cows don't even come close to paying the interest. That is cheap compared to some land prices in other parts of the country. It is sad that many ranches are sold to someone who made a lot of money somewhere else and just want a play place. It takes good cattle country out of production and makes it harder for family ranches to make a living.
john
A rancher cannot charge for access on govt. owned land. They can try to limit access, but cannot enforce it. Thank god for private land.
Due to the Homestead Act, most good agriculture land is private. The land that people could not make a living on was reclaimed by the govt. Just because the scenery is pretty, doesn't make it productive. Some of it is very productive for cattle, but for the most part it is too rough and the environment is too harsh.
Not bashing, just want both sides known.
A little history note--My grandfather bought this ranch in 1929 (Depression Years ) and it took him 50 some years to pay it off. How many of you would start a business that could take that long to pay off, especially if you might not be alive when it is payed off. Those years are long gone now----no one could buy a ranch with borrowed money and pay it off in their lifetime. My grandfather paid an average of 4 dollars per acre and now it is 750 dollars per acre. Cows don't even come close to paying the interest. That is cheap compared to some land prices in other parts of the country. It is sad that many ranches are sold to someone who made a lot of money somewhere else and just want a play place. It takes good cattle country out of production and makes it harder for family ranches to make a living.
john
"Growing Old is Mandatory
Growing Up is Optional"
Growing Up is Optional"
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undysworld
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:08 am
- Location: Blue Mounds, WI
John,
Thanks for some food for thought. It's always good to be remined of the two (or more) sides to every story.
My great- great-grandmother bought our family farm 126 years ago this year. They almost lost it due to the depression, and my grandpa spent the next 40+ years paying the debt off. It's no longer profitable enough to farm it here, but we've managed to hang on to the land. It's even managing to turn a minimal profit, through rent mostly. I think farmers (and ranchers) have to do it for the love of the land, animals and being their own boss. More power to 'em.
Good luck to you, and thanks again.
Paul
Thanks for some food for thought. It's always good to be remined of the two (or more) sides to every story.
My great- great-grandmother bought our family farm 126 years ago this year. They almost lost it due to the depression, and my grandpa spent the next 40+ years paying the debt off. It's no longer profitable enough to farm it here, but we've managed to hang on to the land. It's even managing to turn a minimal profit, through rent mostly. I think farmers (and ranchers) have to do it for the love of the land, animals and being their own boss. More power to 'em.
Good luck to you, and thanks again.
Paul
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Jerbearyukon
- Posts: 446
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:04 pm
- Location: Whitehorse Yukon Canada
Nice kitty cat.....We have a few up in the Yukon, but it's only because our deer populations are growing. Actually it's was the first year they had a draw for deer. No racks on them like that though.
You have some pretty smelly cats though. On my trip so far there have been a few on the highway and be are they rotten. I don't know what you feed them down hre but you should change their diet. They smeel like rotten fish and wolverine urine mixed.
If they smeel this bad people should tie them up and leave them in the yard so they can't get run over on the roads...WHEW.
Jer Bear
You have some pretty smelly cats though. On my trip so far there have been a few on the highway and be are they rotten. I don't know what you feed them down hre but you should change their diet. They smeel like rotten fish and wolverine urine mixed.
If they smeel this bad people should tie them up and leave them in the yard so they can't get run over on the roads...WHEW.
Jer Bear
John, good posts. Now I'm sitting here wondering why I feel the need to defend myself. Maybe it's not necessary, but just to set the record straight.
I am not aginst ranchers. If it weren't for ranching my invented business wouldn't exist. On the otherhand I am not much in favor of folks like Donald Trump or other celebrity types buying playgrounds.
I am not much in favor of "corporate farms". And definitely against government subsidies for corporate farms.
I am for balanced ecosystems.
I am against "greenies" and "do gooders"who try to ram their ideas down people's throats using BS science such as was seen with the Spotted Owl and the phoney Linx stuff as well as what is happening in areas where mountain lions have been unilaterily given blanket immunity.
I'm pretty much neutral on predators. I've seen what you've described on animals being defenseless while giving birth. In these cases the culprits were blackheaded buzzards and foxes. I see and live with what happens when you take the most numerous predator out of the ecosystems. For all practical purposes there are NO coyotes in this area due to the sheep ranchers and government trappers. What's left is an explosion in the population of the "mesomammals" such as foxes, skunks, racoons, as well as the boom or bust cycles in jack rabbits and cotton tails being enhanced. Along with them come all of the diseases they normally carry such as plague and rabies. That's nature trying to reset the balance.
What's ironic is that now, since the demise of wool subsidies, and a new found interest in building the deer population (hunting leases) through supplemental feeding, there is a new emphasis on taking out the racoons because of the feed they waste and the damage they cause to the feeders. Feeding has it's drawbacks too. The areas around feeders attrack ground nesting birds such as quail besides the racoons and skunks. Predation is now up on the bird nests to the point where a good hatch might be 10 or 15% survivors because of the overpopulation of mesomammals.
I am all for private property rights but I am against high fences. Contradictory I know.
I am not in favor of intoducing "exotics" into the system unless they are very tightly controlled. Hogs are taking over Texas. Fallow, Axis, and Sika deer will wipeout native whitetails because of their ability to not only browse but graze. They've exploded in the state also.
Maybe my exposure to to ranchers and BLM land was just my bad luck to run into extremists and maybe the system has improved.
I hope that clears up the picture somewhat.
Regards,
Andy
I am not aginst ranchers. If it weren't for ranching my invented business wouldn't exist. On the otherhand I am not much in favor of folks like Donald Trump or other celebrity types buying playgrounds.
I am not much in favor of "corporate farms". And definitely against government subsidies for corporate farms.
I am for balanced ecosystems.
I am against "greenies" and "do gooders"who try to ram their ideas down people's throats using BS science such as was seen with the Spotted Owl and the phoney Linx stuff as well as what is happening in areas where mountain lions have been unilaterily given blanket immunity.
I'm pretty much neutral on predators. I've seen what you've described on animals being defenseless while giving birth. In these cases the culprits were blackheaded buzzards and foxes. I see and live with what happens when you take the most numerous predator out of the ecosystems. For all practical purposes there are NO coyotes in this area due to the sheep ranchers and government trappers. What's left is an explosion in the population of the "mesomammals" such as foxes, skunks, racoons, as well as the boom or bust cycles in jack rabbits and cotton tails being enhanced. Along with them come all of the diseases they normally carry such as plague and rabies. That's nature trying to reset the balance.
What's ironic is that now, since the demise of wool subsidies, and a new found interest in building the deer population (hunting leases) through supplemental feeding, there is a new emphasis on taking out the racoons because of the feed they waste and the damage they cause to the feeders. Feeding has it's drawbacks too. The areas around feeders attrack ground nesting birds such as quail besides the racoons and skunks. Predation is now up on the bird nests to the point where a good hatch might be 10 or 15% survivors because of the overpopulation of mesomammals.
I am all for private property rights but I am against high fences. Contradictory I know.
I am not in favor of intoducing "exotics" into the system unless they are very tightly controlled. Hogs are taking over Texas. Fallow, Axis, and Sika deer will wipeout native whitetails because of their ability to not only browse but graze. They've exploded in the state also.
Maybe my exposure to to ranchers and BLM land was just my bad luck to run into extremists and maybe the system has improved.
I hope that clears up the picture somewhat.
Regards,
Andy
John, most farms around here are one to three thousand acres. Like most native kansas my dad moved off teh farm to support me, my sister, and brother. Around here there is more money to be made in the city. and land prices start in the 1,500 an arce to 5,000 just depending on the area, western kansas i have seen prices as low as 500 but no water is found on the land. I hunt on about 10,000 acre's total but it takes about ten families to make up the acreage. In the 80's my dad had the chance to take over the farm but it would have never been proffitable with property tax and so on. So it was sold to a doctor and my uncles lease it to farm. I for you one like to see picture and here stories like the wolf because it give me hope that i may have a chance to hunt them one day. Andy if you need help removing some fox i'd be more than happy bringing my fox call and rifle down. Bobcats killed my quail it took me two seasons to bring them back. i have accouple of real nice bobcat mounts now