New Optima lithium Orangetop coming

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

https://youtu.be/ahyGOQlINs0 Video link.

https://www.offroadxtreme.com/features/ ... he-lineup/

So these are being marketed for power sports vehicles so far but then the Optima rep says they tested it in a Ford Raptor. How far is this from the requirements of a 4x4/car? The Ah is low on these. I also wonder about really cold weather and the possibility of the low shut-off feature causing issues.

Seems like the biggest issue for them marketing these for cars will be charging since alternator circuits have been designed for lead.

The biggest one weighs only 7lbs and has 800CCA!!! That's a big deal.

[rmel]

Interesting. Didn’t catch that announcement from optima.
These are LiFePO4 Chemistry and low temp certainly could be an issue.
The more practical issue is charging. If a 12V application, for optimal
charging there are converters you can connect to the alternator to then
charge the battery. But for 24V you rely can’t connect 2 12V LiFePO4’s
in series and get them to balance properly. You need a 24V Li battery
which Optima does not offer. They do exist though.

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

How big an issue is low temp in reality for these? Is it mainly the charging issue, or does it drop off quickly at, say, 20F and less or something?

[rmel]

Output voltage and effective capacity drops with temperature, it's certainly
noticeable at 32F but sufficient for most applications, but at Zero the output
and capacity take a nose dive. So it all deepens on where you live. Below is a
chart from Relion for their LiFeOP4 batteries which will be pretty much the
same for this chemistry for all manufacturers.

LiFePO4-VvsT.jpg (161.36 KiB) Viewed 4888 times

[ChickenPinz]

1C discharge voltage vs. temperature is interesting, but only relevant if the engine starting current is comparable to the 1C discharge rate in the graph. I've not measured a Pinz starter in cold conditions to know what current is representative. CCA is what we need to know.

Another issues is charging, which needs to be carefully controlled (or avoided) at cold temperatures to prevent lithium plating.

What I love most about lead-acid batteries is they are robust. The tend to forgive most injustices, and life in a vehicle and living with its float-charging system isn't particularly friendly.

That being said, this analysis says lithium wins: https://dragonflyenergy.com/wp-content/ ... d-Acid.pdf

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

Looks like a full production "car/truck" version is now available.
https://www.optimabatteries.com/products/orangetop-qh6

OPTQH6-Angled-Right.jpg (905.77 KiB) Viewed 207 times

OPTIMA ORANGETOP™ Lithium Dual Purpose Battery

Dual-purpose battery for both engine-starting and deep-cycle applications.
Market-leading 880A cold cranking power at 0°F, with extreme performance down to -20°F.
Built-in jump start (OPTIMA CPR) automatically disconnects your battery when it's being drained and reserves enough power to start your vehicle, and can be automatically activated with the OPTIMA Bluetooth app.
Industry-leading communications via Bluetooth app to displays battery status including health, state of charge and usage, current, temperature and alarms for BMS functions.
Advanced microprocessor-controlled battery management system (BMS) automatically monitors and controls all functions.
BMS-balanced cell state of charge for improved performance and extended life span.
On-battery controls and status LEDs.
QUAD terminals for easy installation of accessories.
Robust design with industry-leading vibration, dust and water resistance.
Integrated protection from alternator "load dump" in the event of BMS disconnect.
Optional POWERLINK system for convenient battery control, state-of-charge indication and an easier way to connect your charger.
A lithium charger, or lithium charging algorithm, must be used for charging lithium batteries.
Normally, no charging system or other modifications are required for use in cars and trucks.
Fitment Cross Reference: H6 / Group 48
IP67-rated against water and dust intrusion.
Bluetooth connectivity

[whitesik]

-A lithium charger, or lithium charging algorithm, must be used for charging lithium batteries.
-Normally, no charging system or other modifications are required for use in cars and trucks.

These two bullet points seem to contradict each other. What do I not understand?

[ChickenPinz]

All (with a few rare exceptions) Li "12V" batteries have integral BMS (Battery Management System) electronics in them to protect against:
- OV (over voltage)
- OC (over current) discharge and charging
- UVLO (under voltage lock-out)
- under and over temperature -- mostly for charging

Most of these now "smart" Li batteries will tolerate a typical car's charging system. it's not ideal, but it's mostly okay.

The point is, Li wants to be charged CCCV - constant current until the float voltage, then constant voltage until the termination voltage, and then you take away the charge voltage. But a car system is just constant float voltage (13.8V nom) with a current limit defined by the alternator maximum output less the loads.

Long story short: your Li battery would be happier with a charging system designed for it, but it will protect itself to prevent unhappiness if you put it in a car system which is design for Pb chemistry.

Oh, and also, the nominal 13.8V car voltage is lower than the Li needs (14.6V) for full charge, so you won't get maximum capacity out of the Li battery in a Pb-directed car charging system.

Make sense?

PS: IMHO, we kinda got lucky that the 4-cell stack of LiPO4 is close to the same voltage as the 6-cell Pb stack.

https://www.renogy.com/blogs/general-so ... tage-chart

[whitesik]

Thank you, yes it makes sense and confirms my thoughts as well. I do a lot of portable amateur radio and use a lot of LifePO4 batteries. Fortunately my primary vehicle charges at about 14.4v and does fairly well with them.

My other concern with the Optima LifePO4 battery is charging below freezing. Not a problem for you guys out west but in Indiana it gets cold.

[ChickenPinz]

In the Pinz I run a pair of standard Pb batteries (matched). But I do run a separate LiFePO4 battery for my 12V system that powers the ham gear, and that is kept up with a dedicated solar charger which works nicely for the purpose. That way I don't introduce switcher & alternator noise into my radio, and I don't unbalance my Pinz battery stack.