Wheel responsibly....

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:02 am

at least don't film yourself if you don't.

Watching You-Tube videos and searching on Pinzgauer, etc. there are some interesting videos. I amd dissappointed to see trucks being driven in streambeds (not just crossing, using the stream as a trail), blazing off-trail across sage flats, people actually standing in the back of trucks negotiating obstacles, etc.

Everytime I go into the forest here, I find another road closed. The greenies scream to close even more. Unfortunately these kinds of acts just give them more ammo.

The last one I mentioned is just dangerous and dumb, not really an environment issue. Blood and brains wash away easy enough.

PS: not bashing Pinz/Mog owners, plenty more vids of Jeep, bronco, etc etc doing worse.

Profpinz · Post by **Profpinz** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:37 am

Everytime I go into the forest here, I find another road closed

Tell me about it, it's exactly the same here in Victoria / Australia

mjnims · Post by **mjnims** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:56 am

Always good to remind people to tread lightly. The pinz is great for use in picking up trash when out on the trails. If everytime a pinz owner went out they would pick up just one small bag of trash the trails would be much cleaner in no time, and recycling the aluminum can be profitable.

I amd dissappointed to see trucks being driven in streambeds (not just crossing, using the stream as a trail)

I know for some one not educated in our forest trail system, some of the vids look like we are driving off trail up creek beds. All the videos I have posted are on marked forest trails. It is unfortunate that with the diversity of trails we have here people still see the need to go blazing off trail.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:39 pm

I always carry a garbage bag with me and clean up as we go, even on road up in Yellowstone or Grand Teton. It amazes (and disgusts) me that no matter how far into the back country I get I always find trash. And if you're target shooting, clean up your darn brass.

It's a shame that we have thousands of miles of established forest roads here, but 90% of them have a locked gate.

I wish we had more trails like in AZ, CO, UT. But I know closures are hitting those states too.

I know for some one not educated in our forest trail system, some of the vids look like we are driving off trail up creek beds. All the videos I have posted are on marked forest trails.

I was refering to actual creeks (with flowing water). Although, I have been on a few where the marked trail did involve "a less than perpendicular" crossing. I know looks can be deceiving in a short vid.

I am betting that 99.9% of Pinz and Mog owners are more courteous than the general off-roading populace.

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:09 pm

Talk about a timely topic...
Today, I took my kids and one of Jim's kids on a little excursion through some of Ramona's back roads. Primarily I went to make sure that my little girls, who have never been wheeling before, would be ok for Mogfest next month.

Anyway, we go cruising around in some of the local trails that I've been on before, and when we come back out on the road we came in on, there is a chain across it. There are two women and one man standing there with their arms crossed. I ask them what they think they're doing, and they reply that the road is private property and that I'm tresspassing.

I reply that I didn't know that, and that there aren't any signs posted. Their response was that it isn't their problem, I'm still tresspassing. "Ok, sorry about that, I didn't realize that this was private property, there aren't any signs, and I've been here on this road a number of times before, and there's never been a problem" I get dirty looks and crossed arms. "Uh, could you unlock that chain please?"

Now keep in mind that I have 5 children in the back of the Pinz, from 3 years old to 10 years old. The woman finally responds, "Go back the way you came!!!" I reply that this was the way we came, and she starts yelling at me saying I cut the chain to get in. Not really wanting to involve the kids in this, but wanting to end this altercation before it gets ugly, I ask the kids if there was a chain, and of course they responded "No"

Now the woman says that somewhere back behind me, there is another way out, and I'll have to find it. I ask once again of the man to unlock the gate, and he starts ranting again about me tresspassing. At this point, I'm really doing everything I can to keep my cool; I have a business in town, and I have 5 kids in the car. However, at that exact moment, my 3 and 5 year old start crying that they are scared, my dog starts barking at the dogs that the "guards" have with them, and I'm at wits end.

"I'm going to ask you nicely one more time to unlock the chain, then I'm going to drive through it" The wonderful human that this guy is responds that he's going to call the sheriff. "Good, I'm looking forward to suing you for false imprisonment" I tell this moron, "please call them", and start to roll forward towards the chain. He finally opens the chain.

I drive away furious that people can be such idiots. No signs, no chain as we drive in, no reason whatsoever to have a confrontation. A simple "please don't tresspass, this is private property" or a sign saying that the road is a private road would have prevented the whole 10 minute altercation.

Jim and I are going to be calling the county tomorrow to find out who owns the property (if indeed it is private property)

The road in question is "Pahls Way", here's a map. http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... a=N&tab=wl

rollingpinz · Post by **rollingpinz** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:51 pm

Hello

You rock! You, so, did the right thing and I know that it is hard to keep cool with idiots. You definitely took some air out of their sails by keeping calm. My guess is that they saw you go through the first time and thought they could trap and intimidate you.
Before being Mr. Mom, I taught high school and when discussing such things with students, I stressed staying in designated areas and not pissing-off the locals. I think your situation was unusual, but you handled it well. I almost wish you could have gotten their plates.

Eric P

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:09 pm

That's an unfortunate experience. I get both sides of this frequently.

It is hard to tell where public lands leave off and private begins, sometimes.

Landowners get ticked because as soon as they put up signs, or chains, someone tears them down. Then an innoscent, not knowing they are doing anything wrong, gets in trouble. It gets so bad here that landowners pay us (Sheriff's Office) to sit in their access lanes to keep trespassers out during the hunting season.

Laws vary state to state. Here, private property does not need to be signed or fenced for it to be trespassing if you wander in. It is the users responsibilty to know where they are. After seeing the illegal campsites, littering, rutted scars, etc. I can see why the owners can get so worked up.

I keep thinking if they would quit barring US from OUR public lands, these conflicts would be greatly reduced.

rollingpinz · Post by **rollingpinz** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:33 pm

Hello

My problem with this situation was the anger upon seeing someone for the first time. Also, if they were so concerned with getting him off their property, they would have let him take the most direct route out and not trounce more of the property finding another way out.
It seems to me that they should clarify on the first encounter and save their rage for the repeat offender. After all, he did point out that their was no signage and he did apologize. These actions should lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that the driver wouldn't do it again.

Eric P

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:54 pm

todds112 wrote:
Laws vary state to state.
1. Here, private property does not need to be signed or fenced for it to be trespassing if you wander in. It is the users responsibilty to know where they are.

2. After seeing the illegal campsites, littering, rutted scars, etc. I can see why the owners can get so worked up.

I agree with both of the above statements. It is my responsibility to know where I am, however, in this case I was driving down a public road. In the middle of the road, these people decided to put up a chain. I'm pretty sure that if the property is theirs (which I don't believe it is) than the worst thing that could have happend to me would have been the local constabulary telling me not to go there again.

I also do sympathize with these people if the property is theirs. As you stated above, litter, reckless driving, etc would piss me off too.

However, no private citizen, as far as I know, has the right to chain me in an area. It is the responsibility of law enforcement, not private citizens to enforce laws, tresspassing or otherwise.

I don't doubt that they have seen me before on that particular road, so maybe they did consider me a repeat offender. Either way, without signage, why wouldn't I continue to go there.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:56 pm

Property rights are hot button issues. I never condone being rude or beligerent with anyone, especially when kids are present. As far as "seeing them before", I am sure 99% of trespassers are not seen, only their effects. When stopped they all say, "I didn't know." Some didn't...some did.

I always try to see both sides of issues.

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:59 pm

rollingpinz wrote:Hello

You rock! You, so, did the right thing and I know that it is hard to keep cool with idiots.
Eric P

I wasn't so cool at the end of the altercation as I was at the beginning. Looking back, I might have suggested an area of the "gentleman's" anatomy that he could put his cell phone that he was threatening me with.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:11 pm

However, no private citizen, as far as I know, has the right to chain me in an area. It is the responsibility of law enforcement, not private citizens to enforce laws, tresspassing or otherwise.

Laws vary state to state on "citizen arrests". If there was another way out they weren't in fact chaining you in, just blocking the shortest way out. If that means blocking your route back across their land, they were within their rights.

Again, I deal with this alot. I NEVER condone taking the law into ones own hands. Heck, that's my job!

I also NEVER condone beligerently confronting someone.

Just to clarify, not condoning their behavior, not condemning yours. I'm a professional mediator after all.

ARVOps · Post by **ARVOps** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:52 pm

The road in question is paved! The road allows accesses to what we believe are open National Forest trails. No signage posting it as a private drive or road several houses on the road with what are obviously private driveways. But the road itself appears to be a paved public road!

Jim